The Offense ignored

[Anthony]

So we had the best defense in the league, one of the best ST, and thanks to the worst pass blocking o-line in the league, a mediocre offense. We loose one of our starting o-lineman, a starting Wr, and we replace them with....virtually nothing meanwhile we want to take a run at Allen who will cost at least the same as 2 o-lineman. Last year Rw was the most hit, sacked and hurried QB, and we were lucky he was no injured, and so far it looks like we will roll the dice again.

I mean it would be nice to have Allen, but we are already a top ranked defense, even with what we lost.

So before anybody says, well we won an SB with that line, yes we did, and we won home field through out with it, and that's great but that does not change the fact that we were lucky Rw was not injured.

The o-line was the biggest weakness on this team and now is even weaker and we can add questions at WR, and before anyone says Harvin, let me remind you he has not played a complete season since 2011, and of his 5 seasons only played a complete season 1 time.

No matter how much some of you want to say the defense won the SB and we did not need the offense you are wrong, and forgetting that without the offense we would not have even made the SB.

I am not saying I do not believe in the FO, as it relates to the defense they are great, but they have not been great as it relates to the offense and specifically the o-line. we were dead last in pass protecting this year and we were 20th the year before, and those rankings are better than they should be because of RWs mobility.

We need to protect the most important player on the field our franchise QB. And as Cable has explained it takes time to learn his blocking schemes I am not sure a rookie we got in this years draft will be ready.

All I am saying and have been saying is I am concerned, that we have not addressed our weak link...yet.

[c_hawkbob]

I'll definitely wait till after the draft to b**** about not addressing needs. It's not like there was any O-line talent out there I was lusting after anyway ...

[briwas101]

So we had the best defense in the league, one of the best ST, and thanks to the worst pass blocking o-line in the league, a mediocre offense. We loose one of our starting o-lineman, a starting Wr, and we replace them with....virtually nothing meanwhile we want to take a run at Allen who will cost at least the same as 2 o-lineman. Last year Rw was the most hit, sacked and hurried QB, and we were lucky he was no injured, and so far it looks like we will roll the dice again.

I mean it would be nice to have Allen, but we are already a top ranked defense, even with what we lost.

So before anybody says, well we won an SB with that line, yes we did, and we won home field through out with it, and that's great but that does not change the fact that we were lucky Rw was not injured.

The o-line was the biggest weakness on this team and now is even weaker and we can add questions at WR, and before anyone says Harvin, let me remind you he has not played a complete season since 2011, and of his 5 seasons only played a complete season 1 time.

No matter how much some of you want to say the defense won the SB and we did not need the offense you are wrong, and forgetting that without the offense we would not have even made the SB.

I am not saying I do not believe in the FO, as it relates to the defense they are great, but they have not been great as it relates to the offense and specifically the o-line. we were dead last in pass protecting this year and we were 20th the year before, and those rankings are better than they should be because of RWs mobility.

We need to protect the most important player on the field our franchise QB. And as Cable has explained it takes time to learn his blocking schemes I am not sure a rookie we got in this years draft will be ready.

All I am saying and have been saying is I am concerned, that we have not addressed our weak link...yet.

I agree with every word.

Jared Allen on a relative bargain deal would be fine if we didn't re-sign Bennett, but we did.

Should we go out and try to get an upgrade over Russell Wilson? Should we try to upgrade over Lynch? Should we try to make Miller our TE2?

Oh wait, I know, we should trade our 1st and 3rd for Desean Jackson because its bound to work out one of these times...

I hope im not the only person who understands the concept of diminishing returns. The better you are in any one area the less of a benefit you will see by trying to improve it. Someone should explain it to Schneider because he clearly doesn't get it.

[RiverDog]

We haven't totally ignored the offense. We traded a #1 and a #3 plus a boat load of money for Percy Harvin, we drafted a running back with our top draft pick last season, and we just got through renegotiating a deal to bring back a solid tight end rather than cut him, not to mention the big bucks we'll be forking out in a couple of years to retain Russell Wilson.

It's the inattention to the offensive line that is frustrating me, and it didn't start with this current free agency period. For the last two plus years, we haven't drafted an OL above the 7th round nor signed a solid starter in FA. Now we're in a position where we've pretty much dictated the course we must take in the draft, ie we have draft at least a couple of offensive linemen vs. giving ourselves a chance to take a really good non OL that might happen to fall, plus we're at the bottom of the totem pole and without a 3rd rounder.

I understand that this class is deep in OL's, but IMO it's very risky to depend on that crap shoot of a draft to improve what nearly everyone has acknowledged as the weak link in our team, especially when we need more than just depth.

[kalibane]

I have a fundamental problem with bitching and moaning 6 weeks after winning the Super Bowl because they didn't go out and overpay mediocre offensive linemen in the first week of free agency. These guys took an absolute joke of a roster and turned it around into a Super Bowl winner in 4 seasons. I kinda think that earns them the benefit of the doubt. If you hadn't noticed, there is only one offensive player on this team from before Schneider and Carroll got here (and it's been that way for a couple years). That's not what I call ignoring things on that side of the ball.

[Eaglehawk]

Anthony some of your points are spot on as of today anyway.

Especially your concerns about RW's health.

Hell will have to be paid if we end up with a mediocre o line and RW gets hurt.

Still time, but the clock is ticking.

[Uppercut]

LOL - You guys make it seem like we finished 8-8! No Offense? 43 in the Super Bowl was not too shabby IMHO. But I guess we can always improve.

[Eaglehawk]

The oline concerns are valid AS OF TODAY nonetheless. RD and Anthony are correct. Regardless of our record.

I am sure they will make some moves, but until that happens, I join those with concerns now.

[RiverDog]

I have a fundamental problem with bitching and moaning 6 weeks after winning the Super Bowl because they didn't go out and overpay mediocre offensive linemen in the first week of free agency. These guys took an absolute joke of a roster and turned it around into a Super Bowl winner in 4 seasons. I kinda think that earns them the benefit of the doubt. If you hadn't noticed, there is only one offensive player on this team from before Schneider and Carroll got here (and it's been that way for a couple years). That's not what I call ignoring things on that side of the ball.

You're missing the point. It's not just that we didn't go out and overpay mediocre offensive linemen in the first week of FA. It's a culmination of events, the current FA period only being one small example, of the team not IMO paying enough attention to the needs of the offensive line. It's that we've painted ourselves into a corner and now are forced to depend on the outcome of a crap shoot to address our most pressing need.

[HumanCockroach]

Wasn't that "mediocre" offense a top TEN scoring offense in the NFL last season?

[c_hawkbob]

I have a fundamental problem with bitching and moaning 6 weeks after winning the Super Bowl because they didn't go out and overpay mediocre offensive linemen in the first week of free agency. These guys took an absolute joke of a roster and turned it around into a Super Bowl winner in 4 seasons. I kinda think that earns them the benefit of the doubt. If you hadn't noticed, there is only one offensive player on this team from before Schneider and Carroll got here (and it's been that way for a couple years). That's not what I call ignoring things on that side of the ball.

You're missing the point. It's not just that we didn't go out and overpay mediocre offensive linemen in the first two weeks of FA. It's a culmination of events, the current FA period only being one small example, of the team not IMO paying enough attention to the needs of the offensive line. It's that we've painted ourselves into a corner and now are forced to depend on the outcome of a crap shoot to address our most pressing need.

Well quite frankly that lack of success can really only be ascribed to the O-line. And it's not for lack of trying as you seem to be suggesting, nor is it killing us as a team. It'll come around, you know as well as I do that even with good players offensive lines take a bit longer than other position groups.

I understand it's the only complaint you've got, but I think you're overdoing it a bit just to have something to stir the pot with.

[RiverDog]

Wasn't that "mediocre" offense a top TEN scoring offense in the NFL last season?

Not the offense. The team, which includes defensive and special team scoring as well.

[kalibane]

I don't think I'm missing the point. As I laid out in the other thread, they've actually invested more in the offensive line than they have just about any other position except probably WR.

They are trying they just haven't done very well at picking productive players. When you completely whiff on high draft choices like Carpenter and Moffitt it tends to put you in the hole.

When you combine that with the fact that this year's OL FA class was one of the worst I can remember and the draft class for OL is supposed to be one of the best in a long time AND they just won the superbowl 6 weeks ago, I don't think that complaining about the time and resources they've devoted to offensive line is really justifiable. Can we at least get to training camp and see what that unit looks like before we start bagging on the guys who just won the first Lombardi (in style I might add) for this franchise?

[RiverDog]

I don't think I'm missing the point. As I laid out in the other thread, they've actually invested more in the offensive line than they have just about any other position except probably WR.

They are trying they just haven't done very well at picking productive players. When you completely whiff on high draft choices like Carpenter and Moffitt it tends to put you in the hole.

When you combine that with the fact that this year's OL FA class was one of the worst I can remember and the draft class for OL is supposed to be one of the best in a long time AND they just won the superbowl 6 weeks ago, I don't think that complaining about the time and resources they've devoted to offensive line is really justifiable. Can we at least get to training camp and see what that unit looks like before we start bagging on the guys who just won the first Lombardi (in style I might add) for this franchise?

Maybe not training camp, but I'm willing to hold my peace at least until the draft as many have indicated how deep this class is in offensive linemen.

[NorthHawk]

Here is a breakdown of the respective LoS FA's that we have signed the last 2 years - the list doesn't include draft picks or Undrafted Free Agents.

Michael Bennett $28,500,000
Cliff Avril $13,000,000
Tony McDaniel $5,750,000
Total: $47,250,000
If we include Allen, that total will surely surpass $50,000,000

Caylin Hauptmann $1,500,000
Greg Van Roten $1,450,000
Steve Schilling $1,500,000 Estimated as he has a similar background to Hauptmann and Van Roten
Total: $4,450,000


Obviously, it's not the money that makes the difference - it's the players, but nobody can say that with an OL ranked in the bottom 25% that they have tried very hard to upgrade it.

I know the arguments that are coming:
Would you rather not sign Avril or Bennett, there were no players we wanted or were good enough, we still have to sign ET, Sherm, et al. Yah, yah, we've heard them all before - and some are valid.
However, we've known for 2 years the OL was suspect and nobody can honestly say there there was not one single FA OL in 2 years that would be worthy of a look to possibly upgrade our OL starters who were also starters themselves on their former teams.

Finally, we drafted no OL in 2012, and only 2 OL in the 7th round in 2013 while drafting DL in the 1st, 4th, and 7th in 2012 and 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 7th, in 2013.

Can you now see why some of us are concerned about the focus on the DL side relative to the OL?

[mykc14]

The Allen signing isn't just about adding a nice piece to a good team. It is addressing a need. We cut our starting Leo DE. Our D was the best in the league last year, the result was pretty good. If we want to duplicate that we need to at least try and replace everything we lost, which right now is our DE and a pass rushing DT. We might have those replacements on the roster but there is no doubt Allen is a huge upgrade over what we have now and to get him on the *cheap* is a no brainier and I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

As far as the 'O' goes the top or our draft has been focused on it over the past few years. There weren't really any OL prospects that I saw that would be a huge upgrade over our current players, at least not at a discount price like Allen. I was hoping we would be able to get a starting quality receiver in the FA on the cheap, but they all signed elsewhere for more money. Also, the quality of the FA OL group was weak, leading most teams to overpay for the top talent. All of the Offensive FA that we lost were overpaid by the teams that signed them. I imagine that the FO is pretty high on Bowe and Bailey and probably feels comfortable with either/both of them being prepared to start next year.

[kalibane]

Dude you are completely cherry picking. Stop it. I really question whether this is worth my energy when you want to be so disingenuous.

Stop using the numbers that McDaniel and Bennett resigned for unless your contention is that they should have used that money to resign McQuistan and Giacomini instead. If you're interested in using an honest discussion about this then the appropriate figures to use when discussing the resources devoted to bringing in Bennett and McDaniel as free agents are $5 million and the peanuts that McDaniel signed for.

Your post becomes valid when you give me an offensive lineman you think would have been a bigger help to this team at the same price tag that Avril and Bennett came in on. I'm not at all interested in watching you cherry pick stuff (like throwing in a bunch of 7 round camp fodder as evidence that they aren't interested in the offensive line) to manufacture your concern. Who is taken in the 5th round and beyond is pretty irrelvant because most of those guys don't make a roster... especially last year when there were so few guys they were trying to replace.

Here are the guys that came in at the numbers between Bennett and Avril (and keep in mind most of them they got longer term deals):

Brandon Albert (Franchise Tender, could have traded for a 2nd round pick to pay him 8-9 million a year)
Jake Long - 8.5 million a year
Andre Smith - 6 million a year
Will Beatty - 7.5 million a year
Gosder Cheriius - 7 million a year
Phil Loadholdt - 6.25 mllion a year
Sam Baker - 7 million a year
Jermon Bushrod - 7.25 million a year
Louis Vasquez - 6 million a year
Andy Levitre - 7.75 million a year

The other Guards available at bargain prices were like a who's who of terrible offensive line rosters (Pittsburgh, Indy, Miami). So tell me again who should they have taken their focus off of Bennett and Avril for last year. And who should they take their focus off of Jared Allen for this year?

Last year I'm betting you were the same guys who were complaining about the lack of an interior rush and the fact that they let Alan Branch go and replaced him with scrap heap guys like McDaniel and McDonald.

I get the Offensive Line is a problem, but the contention that they are ignoring it completely is just off base. They are using the same general strategy they used to build the Legion of Boom. I don't see you complaining about the lack of attention the secondary has gotten. The only difference is the results. Until you explain what they should be doing different you're just whining.

[Eaglehawk]

Maybe its a bit early to complain about an OL situation that may get fixed shortly.

We shall see.

[HumanCockroach]

You're leaving out quite a few Offensive line signings North. If you are hell bent on including the resigning of guys like Mcdaniel, and Bennett, then the RESIGNING of player like Giacomini, McQuistan, and Unger need to be added to your list, while you are at it, you should probably factor in the draft picks and how much THOSE players cost as well. Promise you if you treat it equally, the numbers are going to be a hell of a LOT closer than you think.

Edit: and the Seahawks did NOT spend 28 million on Bennet last year. PERIOD. 1 year deal, remeber? And if memory serves me correctly, Avrils deal was a SERIOUS bargain. Look around the NFL for premier pass rushers ( something you ALL wer moaning about LAST season as the "weak link") and tell me if they make 4.5 a year, then get back to me.

[NorthHawk]

Just looking at what we have done and what we haven't done.
4.5 Million spent on OL , 45 Million spent on DL the last 2 years.

[Anthony]

Here is a breakdown of the respective LoS FA's that we have signed the last 2 years - the list doesn't include draft picks or Undrafted Free Agents.

Michael Bennett $28,500,000
Cliff Avril $13,000,000
Tony McDaniel $5,750,000
Total: $47,250,000
If we include Allen, that total will surely surpass $50,000,000

Caylin Hauptmann $1,500,000
Greg Van Roten $1,450,000
Steve Schilling $1,500,000 Estimated as he has a similar background to Hauptmann and Van Roten
Total: $4,450,000


Obviously, it's not the money that makes the difference - it's the players, but nobody can say that with an OL ranked in the bottom 25% that they have tried very hard to upgrade it.

I know the arguments that are coming:
Would you rather not sign Avril or Bennett, there were no players we wanted or were good enough, we still have to sign ET, Sherm, et al. Yah, yah, we've heard them all before - and some are valid.
However, we've known for 2 years the OL was suspect and nobody can honestly say there there was not one single FA OL in 2 years that would be worthy of a look to possibly upgrade our OL starters who were also starters themselves on their former teams.

Finally, we drafted no OL in 2012, and only 2 OL in the 7th round in 2013 while drafting DL in the 1st, 4th, and 7th in 2012 and 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 7th, in 2013.

Can you now see why some of us are concerned about the focus on the DL side relative to the OL?

Great post spot on to the concern

[RiverDog]

Dude you are completely cherry picking. Stop it. I really question whether this is worth my energy when you want to be so disingenuous.

Stop using the numbers that McDaniel and Bennett resigned for unless your contention is that they should have used that money to resign McQuistan and Giacomini instead. If you're interested in using an honest discussion about this then the appropriate figures to use when discussing the resources devoted to bringing in Bennett and McDaniel as free agents are $5 million and the peanuts that McDaniel signed for.

Your post becomes valid when you give me an offensive lineman you think would have been a bigger help to this team at the same price tag that Avril and Bennett came in on. I'm not at all interested in watching you cherry pick stuff (like throwing in a bunch of 7 round camp fodder as evidence that they aren't interested in the offensive line) to manufacture your concern. Who is taken in the 5th round and beyond is pretty irrelvant because most of those guys don't make a roster... especially last year when there were so few guys they were trying to replace.

Here are the guys that came in at the numbers between Bennett and Avril (and keep in mind most of them they got longer term deals):

Brandon Albert (Franchise Tender, could have traded for a 2nd round pick to pay him 8-9 million a year)
Jake Long - 8.5 million a year
Andre Smith - 6 million a year
Will Beatty - 7.5 million a year
Gosder Cheriius - 7 million a year
Phil Loadholdt - 6.25 mllion a year
Sam Baker - 7 million a year
Jermon Bushrod - 7.25 million a year
Louis Vasquez - 6 million a year
Andy Levitre - 7.75 million a year

The other Guards available at bargain prices were like a who's who of terrible offensive line rosters (Pittsburgh, Indy, Miami). So tell me again who should they have taken their focus off of Bennett and Avril for last year. And who should they take their focus off of Jared Allen for this year?

Last year I'm betting you were the same guys who were complaining about the lack of an interior rush and the fact that they let Alan Branch go and replaced him with scrap heap guys like McDaniel and McDonald.

I get the Offensive Line is a problem, but the contention that they are ignoring it completely is just off base. They are using the same general strategy they used to build the Legion of Boom. I don't see you complaining about the lack of attention the secondary has gotten. The only difference is the results. Until you explain what they should be doing different you're just whining.

This year's FA acquisitions are only one component of the equation of the "ignoring the OL" argument. The other parts are the 2012 and 2013 FA signings and the past two drafts, which has resulted in two 7th round picks for the OL and zero significant FA acquisitions. If you don't want him to cherry pick, then don't reply by cherry picking the singular 2014 FA period. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

[kalibane]

Keep throwing around contract totals for the last two years Northhawk. The simple fact is Russell Okung's contract is richer than every single defensive lineman on the team and Max Unger's is richer than everyone but Michael Bennett. It's bad enough that you're trying to cherry pick contract totals instead of actually looking at the structure of the contracts or at least going by a per year basis but then you want to limit it to a tiny two year window which "conveniently" removes Okung and Unger from the equation.

Again... TELL ME WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD. Because they won a Superbowl with that strategy. I gave you names of the guys in Bennett and Avril's price range who were available and you can't even commit to one. If you aren't even willing to put your imaginary money where your mouth is, you need to stop complaining.


River I didn't list a single FA period and now I'm getting ready to go in on you. I went and did his work for him. I listed last years notable free agents for him. WHO should they have gotten. For example WHY should they have invested a lot of money in the Offensive line in 2012 when they just spent a 1st and 3rd round pick on the offensive line in 2011? You guys have such tunnel vision it's ridiculous. You only see what you want to see and aren't focussed on the big picture. Moreover, this thread was created by Anthony about the Offense in General... not just the offensive line.

If they should be doing something different then tell us how or shut up already. At least when I complain I can tell you what I would have preferred whether I'm right or wrong. You guys are just whining.

And citing a bunch of defensive linemen taken in the 5th round or later who probably wouldn't make the team regardless of position is just window dressing. Come off it already.

[mykc14]

Just looking at what we have done and what we haven't done.
4.5 Million spent on OL , 45 Million spent on DL the last 2 years.

Which has led us to 1 SB victory already.

[kalibane]

The Offensive line that Schneider and Carroll envisioned was Okung, Unger, Carpenter, Moffitt and "x". Two first round picks, a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick. Those draft choices represent a HUGE investment in the Offensive line. As we know now, Carp and Moffitt are terrible and the weak Offensive line is the result of missing on those picks.

But essentially the contention of Anthony, Northhawk and River Dog is the following:

During the offseason in 2012 Schneider and Carroll should have immediately given up on their first and third round picks from the previous year and spent a boatload of money on free agents to replace them... and if not that then they DEFINITELY should have paid 6-8 million dollars to Roger Saffold, Eugene Monroe and their ilk instead of trying to resign Bennett (the best defensive lineman on the team) and sign Jared Allen (possible hall of famer) to similarly deals.

GENIUS!!!!!!!

[mykc14]

Here is a breakdown of the respective LoS FA's that we have signed the last 2 years - the list doesn't include draft picks or Undrafted Free Agents.

Michael Bennett $28,500,000
Cliff Avril $13,000,000
Tony McDaniel $5,750,000
Total: $47,250,000
If we include Allen, that total will surely surpass $50,000,000

Caylin Hauptmann $1,500,000
Greg Van Roten $1,450,000
Steve Schilling $1,500,000 Estimated as he has a similar background to Hauptmann and Van Roten
Total: $4,450,000

Great post spot on to the conern

Actually it isn't spot on with the concern because it doesn't take into account the O-lineman that we already had re-signed before last season. Let's look at it differently. Lets look at the current cap hit this year for the o-line compared to the D-line. Obviously this is current players and I don't know who exactly is starting. For the Offense I will only look at the top 4 paid OL because there are only 4 DL that start:

Offense:

Okung- $11.4
Unger- $6.1
Carp- $2.4
Lamp- $900,000 (I know he isn't going to start but I looked at the 4 highest paid OL, if you want to insert Sweezy instead that would be about $.55 mil)
Total= $20.8 mil (20.5 with Sweezy instead of Lamp)

Deffense:
Avril- $9.2
Mebane- $5.7
Bennett- $4
McDaniel- $2.1
Total= $21 mil

LOL so basically all the talk about not investing in the OL for about 200k difference in actual dollars being spent. This, IMO, says more about what we have done and can do. We have invested just as much into the OL as DL, the difference is that the DL has been more recent and has performed at a higher level.

[NorthHawk]

I was discussing the last 2 years since we found out Carpenter isn't the answer at T or probably G as well as the known history of Okung and his injuries.
That's why I didn't include Mebane, either.

[kalibane]

You can't give up on a first round pick after only one season where he blew out his ACL midseason. Therefore investing a lot in FA to replace Carp in 2012 is a completely ridiculous position to take, especially when you're talking purely salary comparisons. A 1st round pick is a bigger investment than spending 6 million a year in free agency and they used a 1st round pick in 2011 on Carp. Then in 2012 they are supposed to replace him after an injury shortened year? That makes ZERO sense... ZERO.

Essentially this is my point. All you are doing is looking at the end result (a poor offensive line), drawing a conclusion based on that result and then coming up with a reasoning to support your conclusion after the fact.

If you actually looked at the investment they have made in the offensive line since they were hired there is no way you could believe they ignored the unit. It was the first unit they built. In their first two years with the Hawks they extended Unger, used 2 first round picks and a 3rd round pick to upgrade the offensive line.

The numbers you're using without context are meaningless.

And you still haven't said what they should have done instead.

[RiverDog]

You can't give up on a first round pick after only one season where he blew out his ACL midseason. Therefore investing a lot in FA to replace Carp in 2012 is a completely ridiculous position to take, especially when you're talking purely salary comparisons. A 1st round pick is a bigger investment than spending 6 million a year in free agency and they used a 1st round pick in 2011 on Carp. Then in 2012 they are supposed to replace him after an injury shortened year? That makes ZERO sense... ZERO.

Essentially this is my point. All you are doing is looking at the end result (a poor offensive line), drawing a conclusion based on that result and then coming up with a reasoning to support your conclusion after the fact.

If you actually looked at the investment they have made in the offensive line since they were hired there is no way you could believe they ignored the unit. It was the first unit they built. In their first two years with the Hawks they extended Unger, used 2 first round picks and a 3rd round pick to upgrade the offensive line.

The numbers you're using without context are meaningless.

And you still haven't said what they should have done instead.

Carpenter was drafted to be our RT. That experiment lasted less than a season, and ended well before he blew out his knee. That's when IMO we should have started looking for a permanent solution to the hole at RT, following the 2011 season, but all we got was a couple of minor FA signings and two 7th round draft picks. Now the problem is compounded with Moffitt busting and Carpenter looking like he's not going to work out at guard, either, plus we're minus two other starters in Breno and perhaps McQ. I understand that we have the draft coming up and that the current class is deep in OL's, but that's a lot of problems to be addressed considering our meager draft capital.

[kalibane]

Sorry Riv, you're wrong. James Carpenter started 9 games at tackle his rookie year then blew out his ACL. It only lasted less than a season because he had a season ending injury. They made the decision to convert him to Guard just before training camp opened prior to the 2012 season AFTER free agency.

And even still... who would you have replaced him with? The one guy you can make an argument for is Andre Smith but if I recall a lot of people around here had a lot of issues with his character and laziness. Most of the other guys available were left tackles and wanted Left Tackle money which is why they ended up with Giacomini.

Furthermore, Right tackle wasn't a huge problem (no matter how much I didn't care for Giacomini). The biggest problem on the line was the G position, with the swing tackle being next in line. They moved their 1st round pick to G and had a 3rd round pick there as well so there was no reason to go spend heavily there.

[RiverDog]

Sorry Riv, you're wrong. James Carpenter started 9 games at tackle his rookie year then blew out his ACL. It only lasted less than a season because he had a season ending injury. They made the decision to convert him to Guard just before training camp opened prior to the 2012 season AFTER free agency.

And even still... who would you have replaced him with? The one guy you can make an argument for is Andre Smith but if I recall a lot of people around here had a lot of issues with his character and laziness. Most of the other guys available were left tackles and wanted Left Tackle money which is why they ended up with Giacomini.

Furthermore, Right tackle wasn't a huge problem (no matter how much I didn't care for Giacomini). The biggest problem on the line was the G position, with the swing tackle being next in line. They moved their 1st round pick to G and had a 3rd round pick there as well so there was no reason to go spend heavily there.

OK, touché! I'll concede on that point. I was going off memory, which isn't always a reliable way to argue.

But my point, however diminished, remains relatively the same as in those 9 games in his rookie year, Carpenter looked absolutely horrible, and it was apparent early on in his career that he didn't have the tools to be an NFL tackle BEFORE the knee injury, which should have, and probably did, help prompt the decision to move him inside. I don't think they suddenly came to the conclusion that they were giving up on him as a tackle right before the 2012 training camp. At the very least, right tackle was a huge question mark going into the 2012 FA period.

[HumanCockroach]

You can't give up on a first round pick after only one season where he blew out his ACL midseason. Therefore investing a lot in FA to replace Carp in 2012 is a completely ridiculous position to take, especially when you're talking purely salary comparisons. A 1st round pick is a bigger investment than spending 6 million a year in free agency and they used a 1st round pick in 2011 on Carp. Then in 2012 they are supposed to replace him after an injury shortened year? That makes ZERO sense... ZERO.

Essentially this is my point. All you are doing is looking at the end result (a poor offensive line), drawing a conclusion based on that result and then coming up with a reasoning to support your conclusion after the fact.

If you actually looked at the investment they have made in the offensive line since they were hired there is no way you could believe they ignored the unit. It was the first unit they built. In their first two years with the Hawks they extended Unger, used 2 first round picks and a 3rd round pick to upgrade the offensive line.

The numbers you're using without context are meaningless.

And you still haven't said what they should have done instead.

Carpenter was drafted to be our RT. That experiment lasted less than a season, and ended well before he blew out his knee. That's when IMO we should have started looking for a permanent solution to the hole at RT, following the 2011 season, but all we got was a couple of minor FA signings and two 7th round draft picks. Now the problem is compounded with Moffitt busting and Carpenter looking like he's not going to work out at guard, either, plus we're minus two other starters in Breno and perhaps McQ. I understand that we have the draft coming up and that the current class is deep in OL's, but that's a lot of problems to be addressed considering our meager draft capital.

[kalibane]

Yes he did look horrible but the fact remains, you don't make the decision to replace a first round pick after nine games in his rookie season. Imagine if they would have given up on Tate that quickly (and he was a 2nd rounder).

They ultimately made the decision that it wasn't going to work after he'd gone through minicamp and lacked the skill to handle the job which is far quicker than most front offices are willing to move on from a first round pick and yet you still contend they should have been faster?

I'm sorry Riv but that just makes no sense. This is all hindsight being spun right now. A the end of the day what this really proves is that it hurts your franchise badly when you miss on a 1st round pick.

There will be somewhere around 15 Offensive linemen at the start of training camp like there always is and there will be 10-11 on the roster come regular season like there always is. Right now there are 7 linemen on the roster. Do the math.

[Anthony]

The Offensive line that Schneider and Carroll envisioned was Okung, Unger, Carpenter, Moffitt and "x". Two first round picks, a 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick. Those draft choices represent a HUGE investment in the Offensive line. As we know now, Carp and Moffitt are terrible and the weak Offensive line is the result of missing on those picks.

But essentially the contention of Anthony, Northhawk and River Dog is the following:

During the offseason in 2012 Schneider and Carroll should have immediately given up on their first and third round picks from the previous year and spent a boatload of money on free agents to replace them... and if not that then they DEFINITELY should have paid 6-8 million dollars to Roger Saffold, Eugene Monroe and their ilk instead of trying to resign Bennett (the best defensive lineman on the team) and sign Jared Allen (possible hall of famer) to similarly deals.

GENIUS!!!!!!!

No one said anything about no resigning Bennett but Allen is not a need when our o-line is so bad. and yes we won the SB, and our Franchise QB was the most hit, hurried and sacked QB in the NFL, we were lucky he did not get hurt. Do you really want to take that chance again? That is the issue.

[Anthony]

Keep throwing around contract totals for the last two years Northhawk. The simple fact is Russell Okung's contract is richer than every single defensive lineman on the team and Max Unger's is richer than everyone but Michael Bennett. It's bad enough that you're trying to cherry pick contract totals instead of actually looking at the structure of the contracts or at least going by a per year basis but then you want to limit it to a tiny two year window which "conveniently" removes Okung and Unger from the equation.

Again... TELL ME WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD. Because they won a Superbowl with that strategy. I gave you names of the guys in Bennett and Avril's price range who were available and you can't even commit to one. If you aren't even willing to put your imaginary money where your mouth is, you need to stop complaining.


River I didn't list a single FA period and now I'm getting ready to go in on you. I went and did his work for him. I listed last years notable free agents for him. WHO should they have gotten. For example WHY should they have invested a lot of money in the Offensive line in 2012 when they just spent a 1st and 3rd round pick on the offensive line in 2011? You guys have such tunnel vision it's ridiculous. You only see what you want to see and aren't focussed on the big picture. Moreover, this thread was created by Anthony about the Offense in General... not just the offensive line.

If they should be doing something different then tell us how or shut up already. At least when I complain I can tell you what I would have preferred whether I'm right or wrong. You guys are just whining.

And citing a bunch of defensive linemen taken in the 5th round or later who probably wouldn't make the team regardless of position is just window dressing. Come off it already.

We were lucky last year, Rw was the most hit, hurried and sacked QB, and we were lucky he did not get injured, and if he would have no SB. Do you want to gamble again? I do not.

[Anthony]

Guys this is simple, the most important player and position on this team is QB period. Last year we gambled he would not get hurt bad, and we were lucky. He was the most hit, hurried and sacked QB in the league. Do we really want to gamble again? The answer should be NO. So we need to improve the o-line, and so far we have not. IN the last 4 years the highest pass blocking ranking our o-line has had is 14th and that was in 2010, since then 20th or worse culminating in the 32nd ranked pass blocking o-line this past season. Just because you can win a SB despite this does not mean you do not improve it, especially when its protecting or trying to protect your franchise QB.

[kalibane]

There is a difference between hoping they address the Offensive line which most of us do and concocting some fictional world where they are ignoring the Offense which is what you have been doing in this thread.

Like I said, do the math. The fact that they didn't go out and dump 6-8 million dollars on middle of the road (at best) offensive linemen in the first two weeks of free agency doesn't mean they think everything is hunky dory up there. But here you are in full on panic mode... "we lost Tate and Giacomini, and they didn't sign anyone on offense, why are they ignoring that side of the ball? boo hoo hoo".

Look I talked about bringing in guys like Oher and Penn and I'd even give Davin Joseph a look, but the fact is there was a reason why those guys were let go and none of us have an idea if they are good. And I certainly wouldn't have given Oher the contract he got... would you? Most of the quality guys available were Left Tackles and wanted Left Tackle money. The Seahawks don't need a Left Tackle. So remind me again what the point of all this bellyaching is when it's a month and a half before the draft?

[mykc14]

Guys this is simple, the most important player and position on this team is QB period. Last year we gambled he would not get hurt bad, and we were lucky. He was the most hit, hurried and sacked QB in the league. Do we really want to gamble again? The answer should be NO. So we need to improve the o-line, and so far we have not. IN the last 4 years the highest pass blocking ranking our o-line has had is 14th and that was in 2010, since then 20th or worse culminating in the 32nd ranked pass blocking o-line this past season. Just because you can win a SB despite this does not mean you do not improve it, especially when its protecting or trying to protect your franchise QB.

Nobody is disagreeing that the line was bad last year, but the answer isn't throwing money at bad/mediocre FA. I have shown that we have invested just as much on the OL as the DL in this year's salary, therefore we are not neglecting the OL. The difference between the OL and the DL is simply one has performed well and the other hasn't. Sacrificing more salary cap for the ineptitude of the OL doesn't accomplish anything as there aren't really any upgrades available. At the same time you would be spending money that could be used on the dominant defense that WON US A SUPER BOWL.

Seriously think about it. You are JS or PC and you are looking at the crap that is out there on the OL FA market. You realize it's pretty bare and to get an upgrade at any position you are going to have to overpay. Now you think back to last year when you won the SB with a great D and dominant D-line. You look at the DL FA. You see you can get upgrades at a discount. Now do you overspend on the OL, possibly improving it or get way more boom for our buck and continue to invest in the DL. At the same time understanding you have already SPENT THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY ON THE OL AS THE DL.

[mykc14]

Guys this is simple, .

Its really not that simple. They have already spent their $ on the OL and it isn't performing. The answer isn't throwing more money at it. Lets say they made a big splash and stupidly overpaid for one of the OL FA this year, at around 6 mil/yr. What if that guy doesn't work out. Then do you just sign somebody else? And then somebody else? That's just it. They have a value for each player and over all position and haven't found the value on the OL like they have on the DL.

[NorthHawk]

I can see Bowie might have a future at RT. He was expected to go higher if he had stayed at OSU, so he was a good, low risk pick. Time will tell if he lives up to his promise as often players that look good as sophomores or juniors don't take that next step.

Over the last 2 years we could have at least tried to upgrade the Guard position as it was getting obvious we needed 2 upgrades.
Here are just some good Guards we apparently didn't think worthy:

This year:
Zane Beadles
Jon Asamoah
Rodger Saffold


Last year:
Andy Levitre
Matt Slauson
Louis Vasquez

I suggest to you that any one of these six (6) guys would have been an upgrade - and some of them signed pretty friendly contracts, too but sure, others would have been too expensive however there are ways to mitigate cap hits and bargaining might have got one of these signed for a little less than they signed elsewhere.
This year we had the added carrot of coming to a Championship program that might just have meant a little less off the top contract-wise not to mention others just wanting to escape bad teams.

Where has the no stone unturned to improve the team attitude gone? I would have hoped we at least got to the discussion stage with one of the better FA guards the last 2 years.