Positional Spending Across the NFL

[savvyman]

I came across this article. It provides all the facts as to salary cap expenditures by team and positions across the NFL.

Can be useful for determining how the Seahawks are spending their Cap compared to all other teams and compared to the NFL averages.

http://www.spotrac.com/premium/research/nfl/2014-nfl-positional-cap-spending-437/

[monkey]

While no one has commented on this post, (probably because it's informative rather than debatable) I do hope that people have at least READ it!
A while back, when I tried to get people to realize that the way GM's look at the salary cap, and the money available to them to spend, is more like a pie cut up into slices with certain percentages attached to them, than an entire pie, I wish I'd had this available to me then.

The information linked here is a good example of how GM's look at salary, breaking it down by positional groupings, and attaching value percentages them.
Really GOOD GM (which I consider John to be one of) will plan ahead for escalating salaries, for re-signings etc... and will build that into the percentages.
So years ago when some fans were whining that we were overpaying for Flynn and or CBJ given that they weren't our starters, and some fans countered that, it didn't matter since the QB's as a position group were making close to league average, the fans who were making the latter argument had the better understanding.
That's why when fans are freaking out about how we will re-sign Wilson to a "big contract" there is really no need, as the money to pay him has already been allocated for that purpose. It's already been moved into the QB percentage slice of pie.

Now, granted, the money we've been saving by having Wilson (and for that matter Earl and Sherm as well) on his rookie contract has been spent across the board, and we have seen the advantage of that savings in our wealth of depth at so many positions. That's how we were able to get to a Super Bowl with easily the deepest team we've ever fielded in the 37 years (or whatever it is now) of Seahawks history.
That's also why now, we have lost so much depth this off season.
When John and Pete tell us that they cannot afford to keep all that depth, it's precisely because they have the money that was being spent on depth, earmarked for extending guys like Earl, Sherm and next year, Wilson.

But all of this was planned for YEARS AGO! That is why when Pete and John tell us they have a plan, we really don't need to worry.
That is why when fans are freaking out about the offensive line, I tell them they are misunderstanding how the resources are spent. There is a certain percentage of the total salary that is allocated towards the offensive line (I have no idea what that percentage is, but there is a number) and right now we are UNDER that number because of the losses on the line.
That means the front office has a dollar amount already freed up to spend exclusively on the offensive line. That means they actually HAVE to spend that money, or they would come in under budget in that area, which in the normal business world sounds like a good thing, but in the NFL it's not much better than being over budget, because it means you have a weakness.

Point is, the front office is aware of the need, and WILL ADDRESS THE NEED on the offensive line! It's already in the budget.

[NorthHawk]

Are you suggesting that if an area of concern isn't improving on the field and you have paid out the allotted monies, you don't try to improve that area?
Maybe it's my bias, but that's what I take from your comments.

I think you still keep trying with FAs and the draft until that area is shored up. By only bringing in players that are low cost for that area of concern, it limits the potential improvement and in the case of the OL can endanger the most important (and most expensive) player on your team. Obviously, the greater or more frequent the pressure on the QB, the greater the chance of injury - and unnecessarily so considering any high OL draft choices 2 years ago would have been hitting their stride just as the QB is receiving his deserved salary.

There is a need to be salary and cap conscious. That's obvious, but often times being run by accountants isn't the best use of resources, either.

[Anthony]

I came across this article. It provides all the facts as to salary cap expenditures by team and positions across the NFL.

Can be useful for determining how the Seahawks are spending their Cap compared to all other teams and compared to the NFL averages.

http://www.spotrac.com/premium/research/nfl/2014-nfl-positional-cap-spending-437/

It is interesting, I would love to see the breakdown by playoff team. Meaning I highly doubt most of the playoffs teams only used 8% of the cap on their QB

[Anthony]

Are you suggesting that if an area of concern isn't improving on the field and you have paid out the allotted monies, you don't try to improve that area?
Maybe it's my bias, but that's what I take from your comments.

I think you still keep trying with FAs and the draft until that area is shored up. By only bringing in players that are low cost for that area of concern, it limits the potential improvement and in the case of the OL can endanger the most important (and most expensive) player on your team. Obviously, the greater or more frequent the pressure on the QB, the greater the chance of injury - and unnecessarily so considering any high OL draft choices 2 years ago would have been hitting their stride just as the QB is receiving his deserved salary.

There is a need to be salary and cap conscious. That's obvious, but often times being run by accountants isn't the best use of resources, either.

Agreed.

[monkey]

Are you suggesting that if an area of concern isn't improving on the field and you have paid out the allotted monies, you don't try to improve that area?

No.

Maybe it's my bias,

Could be, because I clearly stated that the numbers are flexible depending on need. Most GM's treat them as a guideline so that they don't overspend in any one area, but when real need arises, the numbers can be massaged. It's pretty self explanatory that the numbers have to be flexible...I mena anytime someone leaves or gets traded or gets added to the roster the numbers have to be adjusted accordingly, there's no way they can fit perfectly into a hard cap for each position group...that would be impossible right?

Where the o-line is concerned, we don't need to spend MORE than what has been allotted, we just need to get back to where we were before the departures.
That's why you know that they aren't done spending on the offensive line...because since they've had all those free agent defections, they are under the allotted limit for the line.

There is a need to be salary and cap conscious. That's obvious, but often times being run by accountants isn't the best use of resources, either.

Agreed.

Well, you two are in good company, Jerry Jones thinks the same way that you do!
Hmmm...probably why he's in the cap trouble he's in now...

[NorthHawk]

Are you suggesting that if an area of concern isn't improving on the field and you have paid out the allotted monies, you don't try to improve that area?

No.

Maybe it's my bias,

Could be, because I clearly stated that the numbers are flexible depending on need. Most GM's treat them as a guideline so that they don't overspend in any one area, but when real need arises, the numbers can be massaged. It's pretty self explanatory that the numbers have to be flexible...I mena anytime someone leaves or gets traded or gets added to the roster the numbers have to be adjusted accordingly, there's no way they can fit perfectly into a hard cap for each position group...that would be impossible right?

Where the o-line is concerned, we don't need to spend MORE than what has been allotted, we just need to get back to where we were before the departures.
That's why you know that they aren't done spending on the offensive line...because since they've had all those free agent defections, they are under the allotted limit for the line.

There is a need to be salary and cap conscious. That's obvious, but often times being run by accountants isn't the best use of resources, either.

Agreed.

Well, you two are in good company, Jerry Jones thinks the same way that you do!
Hmmm...probably why he's in the cap trouble he's in now...

Draft choices last year or the year before wouldn't necessarily have caused much of a ripple in the numbers because of the wage scaling now in place.
Unfortunately they decided other areas were of more pressing need. Free Agents? Lots of value FAs are on the market every year that could have helped us, but we didn't bother to consider any of them along the OL.

It's going to bite us at some point.

[monkey]

Draft choices last year or the year before wouldn't necessarily have caused much of a ripple in the numbers because of the wage scaling now in place.
Unfortunately they decided other areas were of more pressing need. Free Agents? Lots of value FAs are on the market every year that could have helped us, but we didn't bother to consider any of them along the OL.

It's going to bite us at some point.

OK I hate doing this, because an appeal to authority is technically a logic fallacy but, dude, are you claiming that you know more than John Schnieder does about the free agent market for offensive linemen?
I ask because when you claim to know that there are "Lots of value FA's on the market every year that could have helped us but we didn't bother to consider any of them." (not sure how you could possibly claim to know that BTW!), then I have to wonder...are you delusional or just extremely presumptuous?

[NorthHawk]

Draft choices last year or the year before wouldn't necessarily have caused much of a ripple in the numbers because of the wage scaling now in place.
Unfortunately they decided other areas were of more pressing need. Free Agents? Lots of value FAs are on the market every year that could have helped us, but we didn't bother to consider any of them along the OL.

It's going to bite us at some point.

OK I hate doing this, because an appeal to authority is technically a logic fallacy but, dude, are you claiming that you know more than John Schnieder does about the free agent market for offensive linemen?
I ask because when you claim to know that there are "Lots of value FA's on the market every year that could have helped us but we didn't bother to consider any of them (not sure how you could possibly claim to know that!) then I have to wonder...are you delusional or just extremely presumptuous?

Ahh, the old trust in JS argument.
Sorry, but I don't think anyone is infallible. The last one who was said to be we stuck on a cross.

We went through that trust in the mgmt theme a few years ago and it was a mess with people saying Trust in Tim.
JS/PC have proven to be able to build Defensive teams that can dominate. They have yet to show they can do the same on the Offensive side of the ball and in the last couple of years relatively speaking have let the (especially) OL slide. Considering the talent on the OL, they did OK last year, but they will have to improve a lot just to maintain that same effectiveness - meaning not fall to the bottom of the list.
Spending 2 7th round picks the last 2 years and a few FAs that themselves were no better than 6th round picks but let go from their former teams along with not showing any interest in any available OL doesn't show a lot of emphasis on what is probably the only remaining area of weakness.
Unfortunately this area of weakness also protects the most valuable asset on the team.

What we have is a sub par Offensive Line with a LT that has difficulty playing the whole year and nobody who could fill in last year.
If you're happy with that, good for you, but I'm not.

[HumanCockroach]

And hear I thought everyone was complaining about the lack of pass rush last season and depth on the defensive line after the Atlanta game, I must have imagined it.... LMFAO.... face it, no one is ever "satisfied" as a fan in the NFL with weakness' or PERCEIVED weakness'. Yeah, the O-line is a concern, but I simply don't remember people really yammering on and on about it last off season, it WAS the D-line that was the weakness, the year before it was the receiver core. Eh, it will be taken care of, and has been pointed out MULTIPLE times, over what seems like EVERY thread, the O-line has had MORE top draft choises mitigated to it than every other position group.

I want that offense to catch up to the D as well, but I certainly don't want it at the COST of that defense. People become enamored with offense, and sometimes forget how often great offenses win SB'S, you really don't have to go back very far to verify how accurate that statement is, what 8 weeks? If you can't force turnovers, run the ball, and play sound in all three areas, odds are no matter how MANY regular season games your team wins, that Lombardi isn't going to be won by your team.

[NorthHawk]

There was discussion prior to last years draft about OL. I know I talked about it and I think RD was also involved as well when discussing the progress of Carpenter and Sweezy.
It really didn't crystallize until we had both Okung and Breno out and we saw how limited the replacements were, not to mention being abused by the St. Louis DL and losing to the Cards with them having a very good performance against our OL later in the year. The concern is we play St. Louis to name one team twice with Bowie at RT who was part of the OL that was so dominated. I hope he takes a big step forward if he's going to be the starter.

It doesn't/didn't have to be at the cost of the Defense.
The draft picks were paid at the price point they were selected regardless of position.
Did we need both Williams and Hill? I hope they both work out, but I doubt both will. Was a RB really the most important piece with our first pick when the OL needed help?
Neither Williams or Michael contributed last year. Might there have been an OL that was available at those picks? I think there probably was.

Our FO doesn't seem to be able to mine the diamonds in the later rounds along the OL like they have shown to do on Defense.
Maybe that's something we have to live with, or maybe they haven't paid much attention to it, either while relying on Cable to try to work miracles.
If so, pray for Russ.

[monkey]

Draft choices last year or the year before wouldn't necessarily have caused much of a ripple in the numbers because of the wage scaling now in place.
Unfortunately they decided other areas were of more pressing need. Free Agents? Lots of value FAs are on the market every year that could have helped us, but we didn't bother to consider any of them along the OL.

It's going to bite us at some point.

Ahh, the old trust in JS argument.
Sorry, but I don't think anyone is infallible.

Dude, stop trying to squirm away from what you said, stop trying to change the subject and back up your quote above.
You claimed that you knew that our front office "didn't bother to consider" free agents who you claim wouldn't have caused harm to our cap. That is what you said. You need to back up that claim, or walk it back and admit that what you said was extremely presumptuous, because you absolutely, positively CANNOT POSSIBLY know what you claim to know, unless you work in the front office. You don't know what they have or have not bothered to consider!

[Agent 86]

Not sure if what I have to say is relevant to this topic, but here goes:

- drafting is the #1 way to build, not FA
- the Hawks were in their position 2 years ago, last season, and the upcoming season because of great drafting, which mean, players on entry level contracts, which means, you have the cap space to sign FA's (Bennett, Avril) and make a big trade (Harvin)
- you just cannot overspend in Free agency, so I am so happy we did not overpay for Breno, McQ, Tate and made the necessary, but tough cuts, on Clem, Rice, and Big Red. Also glad we did not overpay for J.Allen.
- in order for a team to be competitive year after year, you cannot get into cap hell....looks like Bo Duke is doing this...
- some monster contracts are coming up, so cap space is needed. There will be tough cuts, there will be little action in FA (because FA contracts are usually large, especially in the first 3 weeks)
- keeping the core intact will be the plan, and to surround them with draft picks who come in and perform. 2nd level contract players is where we will lose some good players, because you have to replace them with entry level deals in order to keep your core together.

This is how I see it, there is lots more in my head about this, but very hard to put into words without making a monster post.

I am not a "monkey humper", but dude has been spot on with his posts and thinking. I subscribe to the same things he is thinking, and have a clearer picture after reading his posts.

I think some people need to come to terms with the fact that we will lose good players who we have become attached to in order to save the bigger picture.

The lack of attention to the O-line is not one I am too concerned with. Maybe I am naïve on this. But you have to have faith in the draft picks to come in and perform, or the 2nd and 3rd year guys to step up. It's a necessary evil to deal with so you do not ever enter cap hell.

[HumanCockroach]

There was discussion prior to last years draft about OL. I know I talked about it and I think RD was also involved as well when discussing the progress of Carpenter and Sweezy.
It really didn't crystallize until we had both Okung and Breno out and we saw how limited the replacements were, not to mention being abused by the St. Louis DL and losing to the Cards with them having a very good performance against our OL later in the year. The concern is we play St. Louis to name one team twice with Bowie at RT who was part of the OL that was so dominated. I hope he takes a big step forward if he's going to be the starter.

It doesn't/didn't have to be at the cost of the Defense.
The draft picks were paid at the price point they were selected regardless of position.
Did we need both Williams and Hill? I hope they both work out, but I doubt both will. Was a RB really the most important piece with our first pick when the OL needed help?
Neither Williams or Michael contributed last year. Might there have been an OL that was available at those picks? I think there probably was.

Our FO doesn't seem to be able to mine the diamonds in the later rounds along the OL like they have shown to do on Defense.
Maybe that's something we have to live with, or maybe they haven't paid much attention to it, either while relying on Cable to try to work miracles.
If so, pray for Russ.

I'll say it yet again, maybe it sinks in this time, Bowie was the HIGHEST rated rookie offensive lineman, so lamenting the loss of the picks on DT's seems kind of ridiculous, sure they could have wasted those picks on bodies, because at a certain point that is what you are doing, just throwing as many picks at the wall, and praying one is good, seems like a pretty stupid way of addressing a need. Detroit did it with receivers, Cincy did it with QB's team do indeed adhere to that philosophy, remind me again how many championships those two franchises boast?

And we are NOT just talking about picks ( which seems really odd, because more high picks have gone there than anywhere else on the team) right? Seems like you were all for dumping cash on any and all FA's you could think of, which in turn means loss of talent somewhere else right? Say a Bennett? Or a Sherman?

I'm sure the line was discussed last season, but it certainly was NOT the world was ending, in fact MOST were dreaming of dumping Giacomini,.

[monkey]

First, Agent 86, good post man, seriously good post!

I'm sure the line was discussed last season, but it certainly was NOT the world was ending, in fact MOST were dreaming of dumping Giacomini,.

I know that I was.
I will admit though that I was hesitant to see him lost after the way this season played out, as I saw his boneheaded penalties declined noticeably, his run blocking continued to be at least above average, and his pass protection seemed to improve over last year, albeit ever so slightly.

Still, in the end, It's Breno Giacomini guys... I mean, if ever there is a guy who hurt the team as much as helping it through badly missed assignments and stupid penalties, it was this guy right?
I too loved his attitude! I mean LOVED IT! I remain convinced that especially on the offensive line, it is good to have players like Giacomini who like to scrap.
But attitude alone can only get you so far, and what he's now getting paid, does anyone really want to see the Seahawks paying him that? Really???

[briwas101]

I had flank steak marinated for multiple days in Yoshida's sauce for my dinner tonight. It was sooooooo good.

I can't wait for the draft so we can discuss the actual picks and non-picks.

The hawks have needs. They have needs that have not been addressed properly/successfully for several years. Some want to excuse those failures and some do not. Until the draft we won't have enough info to truly judge them so there's just not much to say.

We pretty much all agree that O-line is our biggest need so I think we're all hoping they take care of it.

[Seahawks4Ever]

A few things flew out at me.

1. How little NFL teams on average value Centers. They do value LT's but G's seem to be where NFL teams put their money.

2. Seattle has been getting a real bargain at the QB and CB position. We all know this will change after next season.

3. We are way over spending for WR's compared with the production we have been getting. Is this all because of Harvins contract??

4. We are spending 5 mil. over the NFL average at the LT position. WHY are we paying 11 mil. avg. for LT when the NFL avg. is 6 mil. ????????????????????????

We seem to be over paying for Russell Okung. Okung is being paid as if he is the reincarnation of Walter Jones when he is NOT.

By this salary cap metric and knowing which players and positions have yet to be paid yet WILL be paid we can make guesses as
which players might be either jettisoned or asked to take pay cuts in the future in order to give pay those pay increases that we know are coming for Wilson, Sherman, Chancellor, and Thomas III.

We are paying more than the NFL average at almost every position on the O-Line for a group that is under achieving at best. We are getting excellent value at the TE position, Thank you Miller for taking less than you are worth!

I noticed that on avg. the NFL collectively values Middle LB's less than OLB's. Well, on the Seahawks Wagner has been more valuable than our OLB's.

By ANY metric Bruce Irvin will be 88 and out the gate and down the road if he isn't productive next season. The NFL pays DE's more than any other defensive position other than CB. Third on the list is what OLB's make on avg. in the NFL. Irvin needs to show he can be productive at one of those positions or he will have little worth just as his rookie contract runs out and he can become a FA. His agent would have slim to none leverage and slim just left town.

[NorthHawk]

A few things flew out at me.

1. How little NFL teams on average value Centers. They do value LT's but G's seem to be where NFL teams put their money.

2. Seattle has been getting a real bargain at the QB and CB position. We all know this will change after next season.

3. We are way over spending for WR's compared with the production we have been getting. Is this all because of Harvins contract??

4. We are spending 5 mil. over the NFL average at the LT position. WHY are we paying 11 mil. avg. for LT when the NFL avg. is 6 mil. ????????????????????????

We seem to be over paying for Russell Okung. Okung is being paid as if he is the reincarnation of Walter Jones when he is NOT.

By this salary cap metric and knowing which players and positions have yet to be paid yet WILL be paid we can make guesses as
which players might be either jettisoned or asked to take pay cuts in the future in order to give pay those pay increases that we know are coming for Wilson, Sherman, Chancellor, and Thomas III.

We are paying more than the NFL average at almost every position on the O-Line for a group that is under achieving at best. We are getting excellent value at the TE position, Thank you Miller for taking less than you are worth!

I noticed that on avg. the NFL collectively values Middle LB's less than OLB's. Well, on the Seahawks Wagner has been more valuable than our OLB's.

By ANY metric Bruce Irvin will be 88 and out the gate and down the road if he isn't productive next season. The NFL pays DE's more than any other defensive position other than CB. Third on the list is what OLB's make on avg. in the NFL. Irvin needs to show he can be productive at one of those positions or he will have little worth just as his rookie contract runs out and he can become a FA. His agent would have slim to none leverage and slim just left town.

Remember there are 2 Guards for each LT so the numbers for each Guard are half of the total - at least that's the way I read it.
Okung was signed before the new CBA when the early 1st round picks were given massive contracts. It is way too much, but it was the market at the time so we either left him unsigned or bit the bullet.
If he had stayed healthy, he probably would be worth more than the average as most dominating LTs are paid more than the average.

[NorthHawk]

There was discussion prior to last years draft about OL. I know I talked about it and I think RD was also involved as well when discussing the progress of Carpenter and Sweezy.
It really didn't crystallize until we had both Okung and Breno out and we saw how limited the replacements were, not to mention being abused by the St. Louis DL and losing to the Cards with them having a very good performance against our OL later in the year. The concern is we play St. Louis to name one team twice with Bowie at RT who was part of the OL that was so dominated. I hope he takes a big step forward if he's going to be the starter.

It doesn't/didn't have to be at the cost of the Defense.
The draft picks were paid at the price point they were selected regardless of position.
Did we need both Williams and Hill? I hope they both work out, but I doubt both will. Was a RB really the most important piece with our first pick when the OL needed help?
Neither Williams or Michael contributed last year. Might there have been an OL that was available at those picks? I think there probably was.

Our FO doesn't seem to be able to mine the diamonds in the later rounds along the OL like they have shown to do on Defense.
Maybe that's something we have to live with, or maybe they haven't paid much attention to it, either while relying on Cable to try to work miracles.
If so, pray for Russ.

I'll say it yet again, maybe it sinks in this time, Bowie was the HIGHEST rated rookie offensive lineman, so lamenting the loss of the picks on DT's seems kind of ridiculous, sure they could have wasted those picks on bodies, because at a certain point that is what you are doing, just throwing as many picks at the wall, and praying one is good, seems like a pretty stupid way of addressing a need. Detroit did it with receivers, Cincy did it with QB's team do indeed adhere to that philosophy, remind me again how many championships those two franchises boast?

And we are NOT just talking about picks ( which seems really odd, because more high picks have gone there than anywhere else on the team) right? Seems like you were all for dumping cash on any and all FA's you could think of, which in turn means loss of talent somewhere else right? Say a Bennett? Or a Sherman?

I'm sure the line was discussed last season, but it certainly was NOT the world was ending, in fact MOST were dreaming of dumping Giacomini,.

They seem to be fine about throwing picks against the walls for DL, don't they? Mid round picks at that, but leave the scraps for the OL.
Bowie might work out, or he might take a step backward - we don't know yet. Unfortunately, if he does take a step back we will have to live with rookies or leftovers we've picked from the scrapheaps of other teams.
All the while the opposing teams are taking what we did with pressuring the QB and going after pass rushers.
The bottom line is our OL is pretty much staying the same while our opponents are making moves to try to improve.

[monkey]

I had flank steak marinated for multiple days in Yoshida's sauce for my dinner tonight. It was sooooooo good.

I can't wait for the draft so we can discuss the actual picks and non-picks.

The hawks have needs. They have needs that have not been addressed properly/successfully for several years. Some want to excuse those failures and some do not. Until the draft we won't have enough info to truly judge them so there's just not much to say.

We pretty much all agree that O-line is our biggest need so I think we're all hoping they take care of it.

LOL!
Good post briwas101, good post.
Good way to make the point that we should all just let it drop as well.
I agree.

[HumanCockroach]

Is that what they are doing North? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me that the QUALITY of the player available in the LATE rounds ( especially in the last couple drafts where the O-line players have been SHITE from pretty much top to bottom) they valued guys that had more upside over Lineman not in the league on the offensive line. Not sure how ANYONE that is a fan of this team doesn't see how OFTEN they hit on their picks in the mid to late rounds, but keep believing those players were there to be had, and that you would have been more successful with said picks.

You can't wave a wand and magically make upgrades at offensive lineman, which really is what you are saying in regards to picks.... I know, I know now we all switch back to how valuable Asomoah, and other chaff like him ( which IS essentially "scrap heap" material, and other teams cast offs, but at a higher price) would have magically improved or fixed everything. Until you get that through your head, you'll never be able to see it for what it is, as opposed to what we ALL want it to be (INCLUDING the FO)

[NorthHawk]

Is that what they are doing North? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me that the QUALITY of the player available in the LATE rounds ( especially in the last couple drafts where the O-line players have been SHITE from pretty much top to bottom) they valued guys that had more upside over Lineman not in the league on the offensive line. Not sure how ANYONE that is a fan of this team doesn't see how OFTEN they hit on their picks in the mid to late rounds, but keep believing those players were there to be had, and that you would have been more successful with said picks.

You can't wave a wand and magically make upgrades at offensive lineman, which really is what you are saying in regards to picks.... I know, I know now we all switch back to how valuable Asomoah, and other chaff like him ( which IS essentially "scrap heap" material, and other teams cast offs, but at a higher price) would have magically improved or fixed everything. Until you get that through your head, you'll never be able to see it for what it is, as opposed to what we ALL want it to be (INCLUDING the FO)

I mentioned Asomoah because he was said to be the one of the better ZBS Guards available. He also signed fairly cheap so it wouldn't have cost much.
From what you are saying, there have been no OL in FA or the Draft in the mid rounds the last 2 years that could have upgraded our line. None.
Right, got it.
Believe what you will and keep drinking that cool aid, but forgive me if I abstain.

[HumanCockroach]

Is that what they are doing North? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me that the QUALITY of the player available in the LATE rounds ( especially in the last couple drafts where the O-line players have been SHITE from pretty much top to bottom) they valued guys that had more upside over Lineman not in the league on the offensive line. Not sure how ANYONE that is a fan of this team doesn't see how OFTEN they hit on their picks in the mid to late rounds, but keep believing those players were there to be had, and that you would have been more successful with said picks.

You can't wave a wand and magically make upgrades at offensive lineman, which really is what you are saying in regards to picks.... I know, I know now we all switch back to how valuable Asomoah, and other chaff like him ( which IS essentially "scrap heap" material, and other teams cast offs, but at a higher price) would have magically improved or fixed everything. Until you get that through your head, you'll never be able to see it for what it is, as opposed to what we ALL want it to be (INCLUDING the FO)

I mentioned Asomoah because he was said to be the one of the better ZBS Guards available. He also signed fairly cheap so it wouldn't have cost much.
From what you are saying, there have been no OL in FA or the Draft in the mid rounds the last 2 years that could have upgraded our line. None.
Right, got it.
Believe what you will and keep drinking that cool aid, but forgive me if I abstain.

Well considering how many there were, something tells me that you should be able to bring up more than one name repeatedly right? ( and I'm not sure why you keep professing how good a player that hasn't played in a ZB scheme EVER is so good at it??not running a ZB scheme in KC, and they aren't running one in Atlanta, sounds like a guess to me)..

[mykc14]

Is that what they are doing North? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me that the QUALITY of the player available in the LATE rounds ( especially in the last couple drafts where the O-line players have been SHITE from pretty much top to bottom) they valued guys that had more upside over Lineman not in the league on the offensive line. Not sure how ANYONE that is a fan of this team doesn't see how OFTEN they hit on their picks in the mid to late rounds, but keep believing those players were there to be had, and that you would have been more successful with said picks.

You can't wave a wand and magically make upgrades at offensive lineman, which really is what you are saying in regards to picks.... I know, I know now we all switch back to how valuable Asomoah, and other chaff like him ( which IS essentially "scrap heap" material, and other teams cast offs, but at a higher price) would have magically improved or fixed everything. Until you get that through your head, you'll never be able to see it for what it is, as opposed to what we ALL want it to be (INCLUDING the FO)

I mentioned Asomoah because he was said to be the one of the better ZBS Guards available. He also signed fairly cheap so it wouldn't have cost much.
From what you are saying, there have been no OL in FA or the Draft in the mid rounds the last 2 years that could have upgraded our line. None.
Right, got it.
Believe what you will and keep drinking that cool aid, but forgive me if I abstain.

Nobody has to drink the cool aid ever, but if anybody was ever going to take a sip from a front office now is the time. They just won the SB with shrewd drafting and FA signings. They have proven they can field the best team in the NFL, why not take a sip? With that being said of course the OL isn't where we want it right now at this point, but the reality is every team in the NFL has some needs. You question the teams draft choices, I would argue that they continually draft with foresight. Take the pick of Michael, last year. At first glance it seems very strange but then you look at the salary cap hit of ML in the next few years and you see he comes with a 9 mil hit next year and he is getting older, so you pick an extremely talented guy who is a little rough around the edges. I feel the same way about Irvin. There is no doubt in my mind that PC wanted him to take Clemens spot last season when he was drafted, but it didn't seem to work out because he didn't play well there as a rookie and there really wasn't a need there when we were able to sign Avril and Bennett. When you looked at next seasons payroll at the beginning of the year it was pretty obvious that Rice, Clemens, and Red would be gone, so the FO tried to take care of that with the draft. At the same time when you looked at the OL they probably didn't really expect to lose anybody, so they didn't draft much there. At the same time it looks like the may have struck gold with some late round draft choices and were able to let Breno go because of that.

[RiverDog]

Is that what they are doing North? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me that the QUALITY of the player available in the LATE rounds ( especially in the last couple drafts where the O-line players have been SHITE from pretty much top to bottom) they valued guys that had more upside over Lineman not in the league on the offensive line. Not sure how ANYONE that is a fan of this team doesn't see how OFTEN they hit on their picks in the mid to late rounds, but keep believing those players were there to be had, and that you would have been more successful with said picks.

You can't wave a wand and magically make upgrades at offensive lineman, which really is what you are saying in regards to picks.... I know, I know now we all switch back to how valuable Asomoah, and other chaff like him ( which IS essentially "scrap heap" material, and other teams cast offs, but at a higher price) would have magically improved or fixed everything. Until you get that through your head, you'll never be able to see it for what it is, as opposed to what we ALL want it to be (INCLUDING the FO)

I mentioned Asomoah because he was said to be the one of the better ZBS Guards available. He also signed fairly cheap so it wouldn't have cost much.
From what you are saying, there have been no OL in FA or the Draft in the mid rounds the last 2 years that could have upgraded our line. None.
Right, got it.
Believe what you will and keep drinking that cool aid, but forgive me if I abstain.

Nobody has to drink the cool aid ever, but if anybody was ever going to take a sip from a front office now is the time. They just won the SB with shrewd drafting and FA signings. They have proven they can field the best team in the NFL, why not take a sip? With that being said of course the OL isn't where we want it right now at this point, but the reality is every team in the NFL has some needs. You question the teams draft choices, I would argue that they continually draft with foresight. Take the pick of Michael, last year. At first glance it seems very strange but then you look at the salary cap hit of ML in the next few years and you see he comes with a 9 mil hit next year and he is getting older, so you pick an extremely talented guy who is a little rough around the edges. I feel the same way about Irvin. There is no doubt in my mind that PC wanted him to take Clemens spot last season when he was drafted, but it didn't seem to work out because he didn't play well there as a rookie and there really wasn't a need there when we were able to sign Avril and Bennett. When you looked at next seasons payroll at the beginning of the year it was pretty obvious that Rice, Clemens, and Red would be gone, so the FO tried to take care of that with the draft. At the same time when you looked at the OL they probably didn't really expect to lose anybody, so they didn't draft much there. At the same time it looks like the may have struck gold with some late round draft choices and were able to let Breno go because of that.

Struck gold? With Bowie and Bailey? I've read a lot of analysis of our 2013 draft, but I've never seen anything that would even remotely suggest that we 'struck gold' with either of those two, let alone both of them combined, nor would their sporadic play last season inspire such thoughts. They may well become golden some day, but that's not apparent in March of 2014. They're going to have to take a vey solid step forward if they are to become regular starters.

As far as the 'take a sip of the Kool-Aid' remark, you can use a SB win to rationalize a whole lot of decisions. It does not make all of them golden. For example, none of our top draft choices from the past 3 years (Carpenter, Irvin, Michael) made significant contributions to our SB run, at least not in proportion to their draft status.

I'll sip some of the champagne from our SB season, but I'll pass on the Kool-Aid.

[HumanCockroach]

Pretty long stretch to say that two starters on the SB winning team "didn't contribute" anything significant. ( and fyi Harvin not Micheals was our "top draft pick" last season).

[mykc14]

I mentioned Asomoah because he was said to be the one of the better ZBS Guards available. He also signed fairly cheap so it wouldn't have cost much.
From what you are saying, there have been no OL in FA or the Draft in the mid rounds the last 2 years that could have upgraded our line. None.
Right, got it.
Believe what you will and keep drinking that cool aid, but forgive me if I abstain.[/quote]

Nobody has to drink the cool aid ever, but if anybody was ever going to take a sip from a front office now is the time. They just won the SB with shrewd drafting and FA signings. They have proven they can field the best team in the NFL, why not take a sip? With that being aid of course the OL isn't where we want it right now at this point, but the reality is every team in the NFL has some needs. You question the teams draft choices, I would argue that they continually draft with foresight. Take the pick of Michael, last year. At first glance it seems very strange but then you look at the salary cap hit of ML in the next few years and you see he comes with a 9 mil hit next year and he is getting older, so you pick an extremely talented guy who is a little rough around the edges. I feel the same way about Irvin. There is no doubt in my mind that PC wanted him to take Clemens spot last season when he was drafted, but it didn't seem to work out because he didn't play well there as a rookie and there really wasn't a need there when we were able to sign Avril and Bennett. When you looked at next seasons payroll at the beginning of the year it was pretty obvious that Rice, Clemens, and Red would be gone, so the FO tried to take care of that with the draft. At the same time when you looked at the OL they probably didn't really expect to lose anybody, so they didn't draft much there. At the same time it looks like the may have struck gold with some late round draft choices and were able to let Breno go because of that.[/quote]

Struck gold? With Bowie and Bailey? I've read a lot of analysis of our 2013 draft, but I've never seen anything that would even remotely suggest that we 'struck gold' with either of those two, let alone both of them combined, nor would their sporadic play last season inspire such thoughts. They may well become golden some day, but that's not apparent in March of 2014. They're going to have to take a vey solid step forward if they are to become regular starters.

As far as the 'take a sip of the Kool-Aid' remark, you can use a SB win to rationalize a whole lot of decisions. It does not make all of them golden. For example, none of our top draft choices from the past 3 years (Carpenter, Irvin, Michael) made significant contributions to our SB run, at least not in proportion to their draft status.

I'll sip some of the champagne from our SB season, but I'll pass on the Kool-Aid.[/quote]

I don't read much analysis about our draft and am not surprised that those analysis aren't high on either Bailey or Bowie. I really liked what I saw from both of them as the year progressed, mainly because they improved over the course of the year, were playing for an OL that couldn't offer them much interior help because it was so beat up, and the fact that they faced some pretty good DL. IMO, Bowie showed good hand and feet as the year progressed, while Bailey shows a tenacity in the run game. I imagine when somebody writes an analysis about our 2013 draft after next season they will be signing the praises of Bowie for sure and probably Bailey as well.

As far as drinking the Kool Aid I don't blame you for not taking a sip, most of the time it leads to something bad, but my comment wasn't so much about our SB win as it was about how we won. Our FO has overhauled this team and literally created a SB championship caliber team. The FO and Head Coach are in simpatico when it comes to building our team, which is something that I believe is beneficial. While you are correct they have made mistakes a majority of the draft choices, FA decisions, extensions, and overall decisions have worked out well. But most of all they haven't made any decisions that lead to the determent of the team. This isn't to say they haven't made mistakes (Whitehurst, Carp, Moffitt, Harper, possibly Michael, possibly Irvin, etc) but even with the advantage of foresight it is hard to find something better they could have done on all of them.

[RiverDog]

Pretty long stretch to say that two starters on the SB winning team "didn't contribute" anything significant. ( and fyi Harvin not Micheals was our "top draft pick" last season).

Irvin and Carpenter were arguably the weakest links on their respective squads. Carpenter wasn't even activated for one of our playoff games, and Irvin was suspended for the first 4 regular season games and almost completely disappeared in the playoffs, so I'll stand my assertion that they didn't contribute anything significant, although in both cases, it depends on your definition of "significant."

I'm not sure you want to cite the overall productivity of our 'top draft pick' as being significant in relation to our other players. I certainly expect more than one regular season game and a couple of playoff games from Harvin in 2014.

[RiverDog]

I don't read much analysis about our draft and am not surprised that those analysis aren't high on either Bailey or Bowie. I really liked what I saw from both of them as the year progressed, mainly because they improved over the course of the year, were playing for an OL that couldn't offer them much interior help because it was so beat up, and the fact that they faced some pretty good DL. IMO, Bowie showed good hand and feet as the year progressed, while Bailey shows a tenacity in the run game. I imagine when somebody writes an analysis about our 2013 draft after next season they will be signing the praises of Bowie for sure and probably Bailey as well.

As far as drinking the Kool Aid I don't blame you for not taking a sip, most of the time it leads to something bad, but my comment wasn't so much about our SB win as it was about how we won. Our FO has overhauled this team and literally created a SB championship caliber team. The FO and Head Coach are in simpatico when it comes to building our team, which is something that I believe is beneficial. While you are correct they have made mistakes a majority of the draft choices, FA decisions, extensions, and overall decisions have worked out well. But most of all they haven't made any decisions that lead to the determent of the team. This isn't to say they haven't made mistakes (Whitehurst, Carp, Moffitt, Harper, possibly Michael, possibly Irvin, etc) but even with the advantage of foresight it is hard to find something better they could have done on all of them.

I'm rather neutral about Bowie and Bailey. I wasn't particularly overwhelmed by either, but as you said, they were up against some pretty good competition and they were both rookies. Perhaps one or both of them will blossom into a solid starter. I just think that it's a pretty large leap of faith to be thinking that we 'struck gold', and IMO it's a huge gamble if we are counting on them filling the void left by the departure of Breno and McQ, not that they were anything special. Hopefully we'll draft a couple more OL's.

I absolutely agree with your 2nd paragraph. Pete and John have made a believer out of me, and I trust their judgment. But even with a trusted salesman, I don't buy everything they offer all the time, ie drinking Kool-Aid, and this situation with the offensive line is one that I'm uncomfortable with.

[HumanCockroach]

Anyone that grades out higher than Okung or Unger is someone that I'm personally excited about getting more playing time, not as sure about Bailey, but by all independent accounts, Bowie is the best lineman in last years draft class, which has me happy about his future. Whether he continues to perform at that level or not remains to be seen, but he certainly did his job "above the league average" and that wasn't for rookies but all lineman in the NFL. If he maintains that level of play ( not even improves in the least) he is already better than what was lost, and what was available on the FA market, baring the insanely over priced.