4 Reasons Everyone Hates The 49ers

[RiverDog]

Actually I had a full one paragraph response to you Kalibane. You know what is hillarious? I stated the exact same thing you did! Lol! That you don't even bother to read. Or when you do, you are planning your rebuttal; so in sybstance, you are not really reading at all. You are a very intelligent guy, but you have major hubris. So your intelligence is conpletel wasted. I decided to delete that re:, because what's the point. You'll just misquote me anyway.

I was at the Thursday Night game in 2012. With my own two eyes, I watched Kyle Williams run right past Ruchard Sherman. Beaten by a good 5 yds and only an airmailed Alex Smith pass saved him. I didn't even know who this loudmouth jackass was at the time, and I turned to my friend at least 3 times and said "how in the hell is that not holding?" Yes, I use the FN eye test. I saw him hold and get beat.

If you were not so full of yourself you would consider that the guy he supposedly dominstes played him once with King checkdown throwing to him and twice no more than 2 months after returning from achilles surgery. Crab only had ONE hundred yd game after returning, as opposed to the 6 or 7 he had the yr prior - nearly all of which came with Kap. So I guess every other team "owns" him in 2013, eh? You never think that deep. Ever. You are far, far too sure of yourself.

I just find it funny how cocksure you guys are, acting like I am in some sort of state of denial by stating he's top 3. Not good enough. No, he's a first ballot guy. A guy you never even look to throw at. And some of you are actually convinced that the rest of the NFL and everyone other than me believes it.

Uh, how many times did he get called for holding december 8th when he was BEAT? Cmon stat boy, I know you know the answer.

IMO It's not that we're upset at your saying that Sherman is 'only' in the top 3 CB's in the game. That's your opinion, and quite frankly saying anyone at any position is Top 3 is a helluva compliment for all but perhaps a few players.

What posters are upset about is your insinuation that Sherman isn't as good a DB as we are claiming him to be and using Crabtree as an example of a receiver that can beat him. That ain't gonna fly in a Seahawks forum, and you should not be surprised at the aggressive nature in which some of your opinions on this subject are being attacked.

[HumanCockroach]

LOL Bane, your cocky, I'm arrogant, we're all delusional..... professing to know things we back up with statistical analysis and facts as opposed to conjecture and half truths or outright lies, about the Seahawks on Seahawks board makes it so, didn't you know? Yeah, we're the ones calling names. ( by the way, I told you guys this was going to turn into the "eye test" defense, it's what Future does when he has been blown up, which happens pretty regularly).

[rottweiler]

5. Because their cheerleaders won't send you some of their dirty lingerie to sniff when you send them a letter to ask them for it in the nicest way imaginable.

My biggest gripe, that.

[Zorn76]

5. Because their cheerleaders won't send you some of their dirty lingerie to sniff when you send them a letter to ask them for it in the nicest way imaginable.

My biggest gripe, that.

lol, my dog:)

paw shake.

[burrrton]

See now you want to argue using the "eye test" (one of your favorite fall back positions). The problem with eye test in general is no one can define what it means and it's completely subjective.

Exactly.

You want my f*cking "eye test* for Kaep? He winds up too much, and eyeballs his intended target a majority of the time.

You know why I generally keep my mouth shut about that? Because his numbers don't reflect it! He seems to get the job done, and you are what your numbers (or record) say you are.

[Futureite]

Actually I had a full one paragraph response to you Kalibane. You know what is hillarious? I stated the exact same thing you did! Lol! That you don't even bother to read. Or when you do, you are planning your rebuttal; so in sybstance, you are not really reading at all. You are a very intelligent guy, but you have major hubris. So your intelligence is conpletel wasted. I decided to delete that re:, because what's the point. You'll just misquote me anyway.

I was at the Thursday Night game in 2012. With my own two eyes, I watched Kyle Williams run right past Ruchard Sherman. Beaten by a good 5 yds and only an airmailed Alex Smith pass saved him. I didn't even know who this loudmouth jackass was at the time, and I turned to my friend at least 3 times and said "how in the hell is that not holding?" Yes, I use the FN eye test. I saw him hold and get beat.

If you were not so full of yourself you would consider that the guy he supposedly dominstes played him once with King checkdown throwing to him and twice no more than 2 months after returning from achilles surgery. Crab only had ONE hundred yd game after returning, as opposed to the 6 or 7 he had the yr prior - nearly all of which came with Kap. So I guess every other team "owns" him in 2013, eh? You never think that deep. Ever. You are far, far too sure of yourself.

I just find it funny how cocksure you guys are, acting like I am in some sort of state of denial by stating he's top 3. Not good enough. No, he's a first ballot guy. A guy you never even look to throw at. And some of you are actually convinced that the rest of the NFL and everyone other than me believes it.

Uh, how many times did he get called for holding december 8th when he was BEAT? Cmon stat boy, I know you know the answer.

IMO It's not that we're upset at your saying that Sherman is 'only' in the top 3 CB's in the game. That's your opinion, and quite frankly saying anyone at any position is Top 3 is a helluva compliment for all but perhaps a few players.

What posters are upset about is your insinuation that Sherman isn't as good a DB as we are claiming him to be and using Crabtree as an example of a receiver that can beat him. That ain't gonna fly in a Seahawks forum, and you should not be surprised at the aggressive nature in which some of your opinions on this subject are being attacked.

Haha and to think this all started out that I speculated "maybe" Roman thought he could win that matchup. Meaning, "we don't care who he is lined up against. If we can clear the field one on one for Crab we'll take the shot". I think any team is going to feel that way about one of their best players, especially if that player is one of the better in the league at his position. If you don't feel that way it's almost impossible yo win, because any SB caliber team is likely to have great players at multiple positions. You cannot avoid them if you want to win.

But point taken on how I stated it. I could have probably framed it differently once we got going on the sybject. But I am a competitor too .

[kalibane]

Dude Future. You can think I'm an ass all you want but you need to stop now seriously and this isn't personal or me being cocky, this is just getting ridiculous. What you said wasn't a mistake in phrasing. You made a statement that was false and continued to argue it until a mountain of evidence built up that negated your original premise, forcing you to try and reshape what you were trying to say. And it has nothing to do with bias towards or Sherman or against Crabtree. What happened just happened. It's on film it's been charted and broken down by like 3-5 different football nerd sources.

Your job as a coach and playcaller is to create the best matchups possible and put your players in a position where they can maximize their abilities to make plays. Whether it's technically possible to beat Sherman on the play is irrelevant. Calling a fade on Richard Sherman is one of the lowest percentage plays in the NFL. That's just a fact. He may not be unbeatable but he's damn close on that play. Not an opinion. Not a view of things through blue and green glasses. So if Greg Roman called that play because he thought that was a good matchup it was one of the stupidest instances of game planning I've heard of. Kaep throwing that ball even if that play was called was in fact stupid. At no point in that pattern was Sherman beaten. This is something that everyone should have known through film study.

Now you're trying to move the goal posts further and further away from your orginal statement. You were wrong. We all are from time to time, but you're just making things worse. Even your spin is completely contradictory to opinions you've held in the past. Now you're arguing that Crabtree is one of your best players and one of the better in the league at that position so it's justifiable to think he can win a 1 on 1 matchup. About 6 months ago you were arguing with me tooth and nail that Michael Crabtree was a dissapointment at WR, that he was average at best and it was Kaepernick that made him good, not that he was good on his own. Your evaluations of your players change drastically depending on what you're arguing and it doesn't work.

None of what you've put forth in this thread makes any sense, nor is it even consistant with your own past opinion on the players involved. At the end of the day Crabtree is a good WR. But he's not one of the better at his position... he's not been a pro-bowl caliber threat. The idea that he was going to beat a 2 time all-pro defensive back, who has locked Crabtree down for the last 3 years, on the pattern said defensive back defends better than any other is not a smart idea. It's not even a reasonable idea. You might as well have loaded one side of the field run four verticals and thrown it up for grabs. You could win that way but the odds are really against you.

[monkey]

Your job as a coach and playcaller is to create the best matchups possible and put your players in a position where they can maximize their abilities to make plays. Whether it's technically possible to beat Sherman on the play is irrelevant. Calling a fade on Richard Sherman is one of the lowest percentage plays in the NFL. That's just a fact. He may not be unbeatable but he's damn close on that play. Not an opinion. Not a view of things through blue and green glasses. So if Greg Roman called that play because he thought that was a good matchup it was one of the stupidest instances of game planning I've heard of. Kaep throwing that ball even if that play was called was in fact stupid. At no point in that pattern was Sherman beaten. This is something that everyone should have known through film study.

I'm just quoting this because it's so perfectly stated I felt it needed to be.
The call was stupid, the throw was stupid, because the result was virtually inevitable.
Whether it was mostly Roman for making the call, or Kaepernick for throwing the ball, who is mostly to blame, is something that Niners fans can argue between themselves, because I DON'T GIVE A CRAP!!! As a Seahawks fan, I don't care one little bit whose fault it is, and I sure as heck don't want to talk about it!
All I know is, it was a stupid play call, and a stupid decision by Kaerpernick to throw it there. That much is proven by the result, and even more by the fact that, the result, was SO BLOODY PREDICTABLE!!!
Niners fans defending the play, is virtually the equivalent of defending a pitcher who grooved a fastball to Miguel Cabrera, with the game on the line in a hitters count.

[HumanCockroach]

Yup, when the ball was released their was no "oh no...." moment for me, no anxiety, no nothing. I knew it was either a pick, or an incompletion. There was NO millisecond where I was worried that that throw or that decision was going to cost the Seahawks a thing.

Sherman had coverage, it wasn't a "jump ball" ( and honestly who the HELL thinks a jump ball is a good idea at that point is simply lost), as Crabtree had ZERO chance of catching the ball, couple inches lower it's a pick, couple inches higher it's the SAME result, or at worst an incompletion. People act like Sherman wouldn't have been able to get to the ball if "only it was two inches higher" simply haven't played either position. Sherman has that much more time to time his leap, control his body and make a play on the football. He jumped when he NEEDED to jump, not because he couldn't have made a play a 1/4 second later.

[RiverDog]

Your job as a coach and playcaller is to create the best matchups possible and put your players in a position where they can maximize their abilities to make plays. Whether it's technically possible to beat Sherman on the play is irrelevant. Calling a fade on Richard Sherman is one of the lowest percentage plays in the NFL. That's just a fact. He may not be unbeatable but he's damn close on that play. Not an opinion. Not a view of things through blue and green glasses. So if Greg Roman called that play because he thought that was a good matchup it was one of the stupidest instances of game planning I've heard of. Kaep throwing that ball even if that play was called was in fact stupid. At no point in that pattern was Sherman beaten. This is something that everyone should have known through film study.

I'm just quoting this because it's so perfectly stated I felt it needed to be.
The call was stupid, the throw was stupid, because the result was virtually inevitable.
Whether it was mostly Roman for making the call, or Kaepernick for throwing the ball, who is mostly to blame, is something that Niners fans can argue between themselves, because I DON'T GIVE A CRAP!!! As a Seahawks fan, I don't care one little bit whose fault it is, and I sure as heck don't want to talk about it!
All I know is, it was a stupid play call, and a stupid decision by Kaerpernick to throw it there. That much is proven by the result, and even more by the fact that, the result, was SO BLOODY PREDICTABLE!!!
Niners fans defending the play, is virtually the equivalent of defending a pitcher who grooved a fastball to Miguel Cabrera, with the game on the line in a hitters count.

It wasn't a stupid call. It was poor execution and a failure to comprehend the game situation that caused that play to fail. The ball should have bee put in a spot that only the receiver could touch it. Had Kaep thrown it like he should have, it would have either sailed over Crabtree's head or led him out of bounds as I don't think there was a very good chance on him making a super human catch, but Roman didn't know how the play was going to develop, so I can't pin the blame on him. I don't think the call was stupid. Perhaps they had seen something to make them think Sherman might be susceptible in that situation and decided to give it a shot. No matter what play is called, it is incumbent on the QB to keep in mind the down(1st), distance (18 yard line), and the game situation (2 timeouts left) when he decides to let loose of the ball. No way should he have left that pass short given the game situation.

IMO It was the failure to check to another receiver, or the failure to throw the ball away and live for another down, that led to its demise. That one is all on Kaepernick IMO.

[monkey]

Sherman has that much more time to recover from the illegal push off, which should have drawn a penalty flag for offensive interference, time his leap, control his body and make a play on the football. He jumped when he NEEDED to jump, not because he couldn't have made a play a 1/4 second later.

There, fixed that for you.

[burrrton]

Meaning, "we don't care who he is lined up against. If we can clear the field one on one for Crab we'll take the shot". I think any team is going to feel that way about one of their best players, especially if that player is one of the better in the league at his position.

When he's lined up against arguably *the* best player at his position across from him?

I think if they intentionally wanted to get the ball to Crab, they would have put him on the other side (SEA didn't think Crab was worth moving Sherm around for, so he'd have been against Maxwell on the left).

I'm not sure he'd have beaten Maxwell, either, to tell you the truth, but I think you're overstating how rational the decision was to target one of the top 2 or 3 CBs in the league (at worst), and worse, one who was putting a bow on an All-Pro season.

[monkey]

Richard Sherman and I think, he's overstating Crabtree's standing in the pantheon of receivers as well, when he says "one of the better in the league at his position."
We think he's mediocre.

[HumanCockroach]

Kal pointed it out, but IMO it needs a touch more emphasis. Just a few short months ago, mr Future was saying that "top" receiver was a borderline "bust" player, it's is extremely funny to me to watch him change his tune whenever it is appropriate to his argument. Crabtree is a mediocre receiver, medi-ocre, medi-ocre receiver and for all his denial of what and how things transpired on that play, and in fact in Crabtree's career against Seattle, I don't want Kap or Crabtree to change a thing. One on one, PLEASE keep taking that "every time" against Sherman, hell, Carroll have Sherman move with only Crabtree, PLEASE, I'll take multiple picks and an unproductive Crabtree and Kapernick game in and game out...

Dudes mediocre, you all got that? Mediocre, a mediocre receiver.

[Zorn76]

I'm not big on the term, "situational football" all that much, but if ever there was a case to use it, it's gotta be Kaepernick's decision to throw on The Best CB in the NFL with the game on the line.

Bad choice.

[kalibane]

Riv,

When the best case scenario on a perfectly thrown ball is an incompletion it is a stupid decision. There was no place for Kaep to put that ball that would have resulted in a touchdown. And that was despite the fact that Crabtree got away with Pass Intereference.

If Roman was watching tape on that pattern being covered by Sherman what he would have seen just in this season was three turnovers and one dropped interception. It literally is Sherman's best covered pattern. Just dumb all around no way around it.

[monkey]

It wasn't a stupid call. It was poor execution and a failure to comprehend the game situation that caused that play to fail. The ball should have bee put in a spot that only the receiver could touch it. Had Kaep thrown it like he should have, it would have either sailed over Crabtree's head or led him out of bounds as I don't think there was a very good chance on him making a super human catch, but Roman didn't know how the play was going to develop, so I can't pin the blame on him. I don't think the call was stupid. Perhaps they had seen something to make them think Sherman might be susceptible in that situation and decided to give it a shot. No matter what play is called, it is incumbent on the QB to keep in mind the down(1st), distance (18 yard line), and the game situation (2 timeouts left) when he decides to let loose of the ball. No way should he have left that pass short given the game situation.

IMO It was the failure to check to another receiver, or the failure to throw the ball away and live for another down, that led to its demise. That one is all on Kaepernick IMO.

Riv, I gotta say that, if the call is to throw at a tall corner, one who was converted from wide receiver, who led the league in picks, despite having the fewest targets, and is ESPECIALLY GOOD in the red zone, then that is a stupid damned call!
Incredibly stupid.
Would you have asked your QB to throw at Deion Sanders in his prime? Of course not, because that would be stupid. You'd take your chances with the better match up. How many times have we heard it said that the NFL is all about match ups? More times than I can count. It's what every offensive coordinator strives to do, create, and then take advantage of mismatches. Crabtree on Sherman in the end zone is a mismatch all right...a mismatch that heavily favors Sherman!!!

Ask yourself, were there better calls that could have been made with the time they had left on the clock, and with their field position?
If the answer is yes, and it is, then that was a stupid call!
The result, which everyone in the stadium knew was coming, is proof of just how stupid it was.

[Hawktawk]

Im glad he threw it. If I recall it was first?down and timeouts with the endzone in easy striking distance. It was the 9ers best drive of the half. I was plenty worried and everyone was. But he threw it, Warren Moon did the werewolf howl and we went and beat some Denver arse. Kaps a dumb QB. Romans a dumb OC. Crabs is mediocre. Hairball is a freak. The 9ers suck donkey balls. Thus it is and shall ever be...............

[RiverDog]

Riv,
When the best case scenario on a perfectly thrown ball is an incompletion it is a stupid decision. There was no place for Kaep to put that ball that would have resulted in a touchdown. And that was despite the fact that Crabtree got away with Pass Intereference.

If Roman was watching tape on that pattern being covered by Sherman what he would have seen just in this season was three turnovers and one dropped interception. It literally is Sherman's best covered pattern. Just dumb all around no way around it.

We don't what it was that Roman might have seen that caused him to think Sherman could have been beat in that situation. Maybe he saw him creeping a little closer to the LOS, or cheating one way or another in a certain formation. Perhaps he thought that being that they hadn't thrown to his side very much that he might not be expecting the play to go that way. Dunno what they were thinking. That's why I'm not calling it dumb.

I can't get over the fact that it was 1st down and they had two timeouts left. I don't think Kaepernick was fully aware of the game situation. If it was a 4th down play, then I might come down on Roman harder as you have. But not on first down. It was very poor recognition on Kaepernick's part. The play, whether it be a brilliant stroke of genius or dumb as a box of rocks, wasn't there, so he should have either gone through his progression or thrown it away.

[NorthHawk]

Roman isn't the first coach to believe his best players can beat the other teams best player - and be wrong.
As RD said, maybe they thought they could catch Sherm by surprise - who knows what they were thinking.
It's just human nature to believe in your guys.

Plays like the one Sherman made are what create the mystique of the best players.
That play will forever be shown when discussing great plays, players, and Defenses - much like "The Catch" with the 49ers.

[kalibane]

We aren't talking about Megatron or Andre Johnson. We aren't even talking about Brandon Marshall or Demaryious Thomas. And we aren't talking about a busted play where guys are no longer running their assigned patterns but are just scrambling to get open like Dwight Clark on "The Catch" or Santonio Holmes against the Cardinals on a play where you have to take a chance on that one play or the game is over.

We're talking about designing a play where the first read is to a sub-probowl WR against the best CB in the league, on a pattern he defends better than any other pattern, who the WR has had little to no success on in the past. And the rationalization is "he might have thought he could take him by suprise"?

Nah... this is real life. I get the feeling that you've seen Major League and Rudy one too many times. In real life Rick Vaughn doesn't groove three straight fastballs to strike out a fastball power hitter who's taken him yard every other time they've faced off because to quote the manager "I have a feeling he's due". The Irish don't offer to turn in their Jerseys if Rudy can't dress and he doesn't get into the game and sack the QB against all odds.

Scouting reports exist for a reason. This play call flew in the face of all available information about the matchup. And the fact that you are struggling to come up with any reason whatsoever why this might have been a good idea is more evidence of that.

If Crabtree were truly one of the premier WRs in the league you would have a point but he's not. If they had confidence that he could win that matchup it only shows that their ability to evaluate a matchup was subpar. And Roman not being the first guy to make that mistake doesn't lend it any credibility. It just means there are other guys out there who have made dumb decisions... which shouldn't be terribly shocking considering the turnover in coaching.

[NorthHawk]

It's belief in your own players and it happens all the time.
When it works, it can give the player and the team a boost.
When it doesn't, you miss a chance to go to the Super Bowl.

Was it a bad idea to challenge Sherm? Yup.
Was it a bad play call at that point in the game? Yup.
Does it happen a much in the NFL(challenging teams best DBs with teams best WRs) ? Enough that the very good DBs in the NFL get their share of picks.
If they all followed their scouting reports no passes would be thrown against the best DBs unless they fell down.
Clearly the play callers are willing to take that chance upon occasion. Even if it is a bad or high risk decision.

[kalibane]

When it works, it can give the player and the team a boost.
When it doesn't, you miss a chance to go to the Super Bowl.

I want you to re-read the reward vs. risk scenario you just laid out here. A trip to the superbowl vs. an ego boost.

[RiverDog]

I've got to keep going back to the game situation. If it was 4th down, then yes, it was a stupid call. Sherman wins that matchup against Crabtree 9 times out of 10, and when everything comes down to one play, you want to go with the best percentage play. But with two timeouts in their pockets and 22 seconds with the ball on the 18, the Niners had three more plays, so no viable play, even a running play, would have been stupid providing your quarterback doesn't phuck it up.

[NorthHawk]

When it works, it can give the player and the team a boost.
When it doesn't, you miss a chance to go to the Super Bowl.

I want you to re-read the reward vs. risk scenario you just laid out here. A trip to the superbowl vs. an ego boost.

Just one of the reasons why it was poor judgement.
Do we know if Crabtree was the Primary target or did Kap decide on his own to gamble?

[kalibane]

I've got to keep going back to the game situation. If it was 4th down, then yes, it was a stupid call. Sherman wins that matchup against Crabtree 9 times out of 10, and when everything comes down to one play, you want to go with the best percentage play. But with two timeouts in their pockets and 22 seconds with the ball on the 18, the Niners had three more plays, so no viable play, even a running play, would have been stupid providing your quarterback doesn't phuck it up.

I think the fact that it was first down makes it an even worse call not better. There is no reason to call a play that so often has resulted in a turnover when you have 3 more downs and timeouts to burn. That's the type of play you call when you're desperate and absolutely have to have a pass that goes into the endzone or the game is over.

Now one thing in Roman's defense Kaep should have gone through his progression or just thrown the ball through the endzone when it was covered. But this is also where you need to know who your QB is, and he has had repeated problems working through his progression and like on his TD pass to Boldin earlier in the game has shown a pattern of being willing to rely on his arm strength to make throws that really aren't a great idea.

I just don't see any thing intelligent about the play call or the decision to actually throw the ball. Even if he somehow completes it, it's only because Sherman either didn't perform at his usual level or Crabtree makes the play of his career. Either way it's pure luck. It's like going to a craps table with money for four minimum bets and instead of using your four minimum bets you put all your money on rolling double 6s. Yeah it's possible you could win but generally speaking it's a sucker bet.

[burrrton]

Not related to the argument at hand, but:

he has had repeated problems working through his progression

Yes, and that problem is: he doesn't do it.