Ukraine

[Aseahawkfan]

It's good to see China stepping up to maybe stop this. If even China does not want war, Russia will truly be isolated.

The more days that go on without a nuclear launch, the less likely that Putin has lost his mind and will do it.

[RiverDog]

I do agree about China having a unique position to potentially create a ceasefire...which would do a lot for their countries' reputation.

One of the things that China...and Russia as far as that goes, has counted on in the past is the vast number of differences and internal fights that the west/NATO has had between themselves. This incident with Ukraine seems to have galvanized the west, given them the realization that they face a common enemy. China's fear could be that the west could emerge from this being a much tougher nut to crack, more difficult to bargain with, both economically was well as militarily.

[I-5]

One of the things that China...and Russia as far as that goes, has counted on in the past is the vast number of differences and internal fights that the west/NATO has had between themselves. This incident with Ukraine seems to have galvanized the west, given them the realization that they face a common enemy. China's fear could be that the west could emerge from this being a much tougher nut to crack, more difficult to bargain with, both economically was well as militarily.

Great point and very true. We've never seen this much galvanized effort from the West. Credit goes straight to the president of Ukraine and the people themselves. I certainly didn't expect to see that coming in the days before Russia invaded.

[Aseahawkfan]

It kills me to hear Zelensky and his people cry for freedom and to not have the United States going in. We're supposed to fight for free people around the world. It's what we were born to do as a nation. Regardless of whether we have always lived up to that standard, it is the guiding principle of us as a people to want freedom for everyone around the world as well as at home. It's why every time we go to war, the government tries to sell us that our freedom is threatened because they know that is what galvanizes us to action. We may fight amongst ourselves, but a threat to the freedom of the nation is a threat to us all. We are watching a free people ask us for help and we do not go in? Feels bad.

[RiverDog]

Great point and very true. We've never seen this much galvanized effort from the West. Credit goes straight to the president of Ukraine and the people themselves. I certainly didn't expect to see that coming in the days before Russia invaded.

It kills me to hear Zelensky and his people cry for freedom and to not have the United States going in. We're supposed to fight for free people around the world. It's what we were born to do as a nation. Regardless of whether we have always lived up to that standard, it is the guiding principle of us as a people to want freedom for everyone around the world as well as at home. It's why every time we go to war, the government tries to sell us that our freedom is threatened because they know that is what galvanizes us to action. We may fight amongst ourselves, but a threat to the freedom of the nation is a threat to us all. We are watching a free people ask us for help and we do not go in? Feels bad.

I agree with both of you. When Zelensky was given a free ticket out of the country, he said "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition." and vowed to fight to the death. It reminded me of my favorite part in Saving Private Ryan, when the squad found Ryan and told him that his brothers had been killed in combat and that they were taking him home. Ryan's response was "You tell her (Ryan's mother) that when you found me, I was with the only brothers that I have left, and that I was not about to abandon them. I think she'll understand that. I'm not leaving this bridge!" Zelensky has balls of steel, and he's inspired not only a nation, but half the world, perhaps even the Chinese.

But on the other hand, we have to look at the larger picture, the best way to stop this madness without causing a nuclear war. It's like walking on egg shells.

[I-5]

In my opinion, the US or NATO directly taking part in Ukraine would spell nuclear war, whether immediately or soon after. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe, and I think that's why they are only in supply mode until now. If Putin goes large scale with civilian deaths, then I think something big will need to change.

[Aseahawkfan]

In my opinion, the US or NATO directly taking part in Ukraine would spell nuclear war, whether immediately or soon after. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe, and I think that's why they are only in supply mode until now. If Putin goes large scale with civilian deaths, then I think something big will need to change.

So what do we do? Let a guy keep taking over places as long as they can threaten nuclear war? We're going to have settle this world at some point. Either a free world or an oppressed one with oppression growing stronger by the year as long as they can threaten nukes.

This is why I'm never much in agreement with anti-war folks who want us to go to sleep like the world is free of tyranny and we can all just give up our guns and pretend nothing bad will ever happen again. It's a fairy tale fantasy. This isn't over yet and we need to make sure goes the right way. Not continue to enrich and support tyrannical governments and tyrants who just keep on using the money and military we sell to them for oppression.

[I-5]

If I knew what to do, I'd be the Nobel prize winner. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I would be very much in favour of the NATO coalition to get involved, but I personally think nuclear war would be the result. I'm not anti-war per se depending on the moment - for example the US had no choice but to be there for WW2. What do YOU think would happen?

[c_hawkbob]

I cannot accept that the the rest of the world is supposed to just sit by and let this idiot do whatever he wants because we're all afraid of what he could do if we tried to hold him accountable.

[I-5]

Definitely not just sit by. I'm just curious, why do you think Putin hasn't crushed Ukraine yet after nearly a week? Poor planning? Is it possible he's losing due to guerilla warfare by both the Ukrainian military and a majority of the civilian population? Do you think conventional warfare if NATO came in might result in even more civilian deaths?

[c_hawkbob]

why do you think Putin hasn't crushed Ukraine yet after nearly a week? Poor planning? Is it possible he's losing due to guerilla warfare by both the Ukrainian military and a majority of the civilian population?

Yes, and yes! (emphasis intentional on the second yes)

Do you think conventional warfare if NATO came in might result in even more civilian deaths?

I do not. I think if left unchecked he will completely decimate Ukraine. The losses will be enormous. Arresting that chain of events early may be the only way to avoid complete catastrophe.

[I-5]

I do not. I think if left unchecked he will completely decimate Ukraine. The losses will be enormous. Arresting that chain of events early may be the only way to avoid complete catastrophe.

I'm definitely not saying the NATO coalition should leave him unchecked, either. I think it's a matter of timing and watching how the Ukrainians are handling it. So far, they're giving a masterclass on how to effectively deal with Russia. It's really hard to know what's true or not, but I read that Russian deaths are in the neighborhood of 7,000. If even close to true, that's a ridiculously high number of deaths.

[Aseahawkfan]

I cannot stand these tyrants. I despise them. I wish there was some way we the American people could make clear to the regular folk of the world that we do not want to take them over or invade them or anything of the kind. We just want a peaceful, prosperous world where these tiresome tyrants and power groups stop trying to hold on to oppressive traditions against gender or race or some idea of tyrannical history no one should want a part of any longer.

We live on a floating round island in the middle of space. None of us have anywhere to go. We need to accept that reality and not let these scum try to manipulate us into destroying each other like there is anything to fight over. That is a path to dystopia. Free, prosperous, and working together as one group is the best way for us to go so we might one day explore the universe as one people.

But before that can happen, we have to settle with men like Putin. This will be either the hard way as in a vicious war. Or maybe at some point the people even in Russia and these other places will just finally refuse to be used as pawns in the power games of evil men. If we want that to happen, we have to communicate clearly across the world.

And we have to stand with the free people of the world.

[I-5]

I cannot stand these tyrants. I despise them. I wish there was some way we the American people could make clear to the regular folk of the world that we do not want to take them over or invade them or anything of the kind. We just want a peaceful, prosperous world where these tiresome tyrants and power groups stop trying to hold on to oppressive traditions against gender or race or some idea of tyrannical history no one should want a part of any longer.

We live on a floating round island in the middle of space. None of us have anywhere to go. We need to accept that reality and not let these scum try to manipulate us into destroying each other like there is anything to fight over. That is a path to dystopia. Free, prosperous, and working together as one group is the best way for us to go so we might one day explore the universe as one people.

But before that can happen, we have to settle with men like Putin. This will be either the hard way as in a vicious war. Or maybe at some point the people even in Russia and these other places will just finally refuse to be used as pawns in the power games of evil men. If we want that to happen, we have to communicate clearly across the world.

And we have to stand with the free people of the world.

I'm trying to parse a plan out of all that...what does settling with Putin look like? Send the entire NATO force into Ukraine and see what happens, and/or targeting Putin in Moscow?

I think it's pretty clear where the Free World stands, between crushing sanctions and highly effective military supplies coming from many many countries. Even Switzerland is taking taking a stand.

[I-5]

The chances of assassination by someone in his own cabinet is going up daily. Did you see how much distance he puts between himself and others in all of his public meetings?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/vladimir-putin-russian-leaders-hideout-26345493?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm trying to parse a plan out of all that...what does settling with Putin look like? Send the entire NATO force into Ukraine and see what happens, and/or targeting Putin in Moscow?

I think it's pretty clear where the Free World stands, between crushing sanctions and highly effective military supplies coming from many many countries. Even Switzerland is taking taking a stand.

We go to war with Russia and finish him and his power once and for all. We disarm them as we did Japan and Germany. We end the era of ridiculous warlords. Same as Hitler.

How well did sanctions work on Germany? All it did was set up World War 2 as the crushing sanctions led to a economy that created a feeling in Germany that they were beset by the world. Then they built up and prepared to lash out.

At some point you have to finish your enemy or they just retreat and prepare for worse.

Even if he is contained now, crushing sanctions on Russia will create hostility over time with Russians and probably produce an even worse leader as history continues to repeat itself.

The current plan seems to be to hope Ukraine holds out, hope the Russians kill their own leader which has never happened in their history, and then what? Hope the crushing sanctions create such misery that what? They somehow overthrow a guy that isn't even properly elected and has held power because of his ability to use violence to maintain his power?

If we wait to take him out, he may just do worse later or produce a worse leader as the crushing sanctions make the Russian people angry at the world just like it did with Germans when they were hammered after WW1.

Waiting for an enemy to build up even stronger with a people who will grow angry and feel oppressed by sanctions has not proven to be an intelligent way to end an empire. It just seems to make them angrier and create leaders that slowly build up their power again until they can lash out.

[Aseahawkfan]

The chances of assassination by someone in his own cabinet is going up daily. Did you see how much distance he puts between himself and others in all of his public meetings?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/vladimir-putin-russian-leaders-hideout-26345493?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Seems more like he has surrounded himself with Russian Oligarchs to kill them if they leave than the other way around.

If he has gone to hide, it may be in preparation for the coming nuclear devastation he plans to unleash.

[I-5]

We go to war with Russia and finish him and his power once and for all. We disarm them as we did Japan and Germany. We end the era of ridiculous warlords. Same as Hitler.

How well did sanctions work on Germany? All it did was set up World War 2 as the crushing sanctions led to a economy that created a feeling in Germany that they were beset by the world. Then they built up and prepared to lash out.

At some point you have to finish your enemy or they just retreat and prepare for worse.

Even if he is contained now, crushing sanctions on Russia will create hostility over time with Russians and probably produce an even worse leader as history continues to repeat itself.

The current plan seems to be to hope Ukraine holds out, hope the Russians kill their own leader which has never happened in their history, and then what? Hope the crushing sanctions create such misery that what? They somehow overthrow a guy that isn't even properly elected and has held power because of his ability to use violence to maintain his power?

If we wait to take him out, he may just do worse later or produce a worse leader as the crushing sanctions make the Russian people angry at the world just like it did with Germans when they were hammered after WW1.

Waiting for an enemy to build up even stronger with a people who will grow angry and feel oppressed by sanctions has not proven to be an intelligent way to end an empire. It just seems to make them angrier and create leaders that slowly build up their power again until they can lash out.

You mean a conventional war with Russia? Any direct engagement between two these two superpowers means mutually assured destruction via 1000 warheads going between the two countries. Sorry, but what exactly are you envisioning that won't end up with the nuclear launch codes on both sides being activated? But yeah, I'm all for taking Putin out, if it's that easy.

[I-5]

Seems more like he has surrounded himself with Russian Oligarchs to kill them if they leave than the other way around.

If he has gone to hide, it may be in preparation for the coming nuclear devastation he plans to unleash.

A lot of his oligarchs aren't even in Russia; they're in the UK, US, and everywhere else....because they're the ones moving Putin's assets around - since most of his wealth being outside of Russia.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sanctions after Crimea. I even provided an article by an idiot claiming they worked while the Ukraine invasion occurs.

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2015/07/13/sanctions-after-crimea-have-they-worked/index.html

Georgia-Russian War. N.A.T.O. does nothing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

Belarus Relationship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93Russia_relations

2nd Chechen War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

So Putin, this guy who hasn't cared ever about sanctions or what is morally right or whether people are dying and has held power for 20 plus years, is going to suddenly respond to sanctions and back off in fear? His own people are going to kill him after twenty plus years in power arresting Russian Oligarchs and taking everything from them or killing political opponents?

Why would anything suddenly change with Putin? I don't see any reason to believe Putin will respond to anything but a superior force and him destroyed. If he is successful, he is just going to inspire a new generation of Russian dictators to pursue even greater power.

My buddy from England calls Biden Neville Chamberlain right now, the man who appeased Hitler until Hitler could be appeased no more. You want to look at a real Hitler figure in modern times, look at Putin. That is what a real Hitler looks like. He doesn't care about sanctions or lives lost or anything of the kind. He only cares about power and his view of the Russian Empire.

[Aseahawkfan]

You mean a conventional war with Russia? Any direct engagement between two these two superpowers means mutually assured destruction via 1000 warheads going between the two countries. Sorry, but what exactly are you envisioning that won't end up with the nuclear launch codes on both sides being activated? But yeah, I'm all for taking Putin out, if it's that easy.

It won't be easy. But if this war has shown nothing else, it is clear that we have to prepare for a war with Russia. The more we allow them to take, the more they will take.

You cannot appease conquerors or they will continue to conquer.

To sit back in fear is what Putin wants and whoever is supporting Putin in this insanity.

[I-5]

It won't be easy. But if this war has shown nothing else, it is clear that we have to prepare for a war with Russia. The more we allow them to take, the more they will take.

You cannot appease conquerors or they will continue to conquer.

To sit back in fear is what Putin wants and whoever is supporting Putin in this insanity.

Sorry, it's still not clear what strategy you're proposing. I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe I missed it. I don't see any direct engagement that doesn't end with the entire arsenal of nuclear warheads being launched at both Russia and the US, never mind Ukraine. How would you avoid a nuclear war if US/NATO and Russia are going at it?

[I-5]

This video of captured russian soldiers gives an insight into the morale of the invaders. They know it's not right and they realize they were being lied to about being 'peacekeepers', and see that the local are just doing what they can to fight for their land.

https://youtu.be/l7CfoDByXso

[Aseahawkfan]

Sorry, it's still not clear what strategy you're proposing. I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe I missed it. I don't see any direct engagement that doesn't end with the entire arsenal of nuclear warheads being launched at both Russia and the US, never mind Ukraine. How would you avoid a nuclear war if US/NATO and Russia are going at it?

I don't avoid it. I would engage it. My strategy is to either force Putin out at any cost and end Russia's power forever. One way or the other.

The nuclear weapons are here. There is no avoiding them. We gain nothing by continuing this game of mutually assured destruction but waiting for one of these many tyrant nations to engage the bomb the first.

We should plan for Russia's destruction or an end to their power. Their choice.

The nuclear war is coming. You can decide to wait until you stand alone to be destroyed or you stand together to end the tyranny.

What is your plan? To wait until Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and then some of the African nations have nuclear weapons so we are always sitting in fear why these tyrant nations do what they want with always the threat of nuclear weapons holding you back until what? You give up your own country after being invaded just to avoid getting nuked? Where does it end? How far does Russia have to go? How far does China have to go?

You have to check this kind of behavior or you'll end up in World War 3 when you are weak rather than strong just as World War 1 and 2 happened. Germany made itself exceedingly strong before it lashed out. Sanctions on them or anger from the global community didn't matter a bit.

Do you want to be like Neville Chamberlain appeasing and appeasing and waiting and waiting until your enemy is so strong that you cower in fear? Or like Churchill where you prepare for war and never give up?

Is Putin and his surrounding advisers willing to fight to the death and end Russia forever to have their way? Because us cowering from his threats is empowering him.

You keep talking about these sanctions like they stopped him ever before or stopped Germany during the Third Reich when the destruction of Germany's economy is often cited as the reason for the rise of the Third Reich. They looked to Hitler to make them strong again and he did it without the help of the world with crushing sanctions on Germany.

[Aseahawkfan]

This video of captured russian soldiers gives an insight into the morale of the invaders. They know it's not right and they realize they were being lied to about being 'peacekeepers', and see that the local are just doing what they can to fight for their land.

https://youtu.be/l7CfoDByXso

When have Russian soldiers not been treated like cannon fodder and lied to? That is the history of Russia and their "revolution" and wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227

I don't know what cultural element drives Russian leadership to such lengths, but Russian warmongers are the worst.

[Aseahawkfan]

Also why I came here tonight.

115 a barrel of oil and rising.

[Aseahawkfan]

Putin has been preparing for this for a while. He built a replacement for SWIFT.

https://www.fxempire.com/news/article/central-bank-of-russia-launches-swift-replacement-with-399-users-918266

[RiverDog]

Sanctions haven't worked in the past. We've had sanctions against Cuba for over 50 years and it never resulted in a regime change. The only place I can think of where sanctions were effective in creating a desired change was in South Africa when we slapped sanctions on them to help prod them to do away with their policy of apartheid. They are not effective against totalitarian regimes. Countries like Cuba and North Korea can simply work around them.

However, these sanctions are unprecedented in their scope. Russia is almost completely isolated from the western world. Their currency is virtually worthless. I just got through seeing a news program showing an airport in Russia where thousands are trying to leave the country but there's a wave of flight cancelations because most of the western countries have closed their air space to Russian airlines and US airlines such as Delta have canceled flights into and out of Russia. Frustration with their leadership has to be reaching a fever pitch.

I'm very cool to establishing a no fly zone over Ukraine. If Putin is itching to unleash his nukes, what better excuse would he have if we started shooting down Russian planes and killing Russians? It would be a clearly provocative act that he would be forced to respond to. It would remove any checks and balances that might exist in the Russian C2 structure.

I'm normally pretty hawkish in these situations, but I'm finding myself coming down more on I5's side of this argument. I don't like the thought of being intimidated by Putin, but the consequences are too great. Even a battlefield tactical nuke is twice as powerful as the bomb we dropped on Hiroshima, and once the nuclear genie is out of the bottle, who knows where it will end. As an alternative, I'd ramp up supplying Ukraine with arms and food, increase our covert operations, both in Ukraine and in Russia, and take a wait and see approach, at least for now.

Time is on our side. Putin can't keep his army in the field indefinitely and his citizens aren't going to remain patient forever.

[tarlhawk]

This is a dangerous civil war type world event that unfortunately lost its chance to be resolved peaceably. Our own country had no real opportunity for diplomacy since our administration has attacked Putin on the world stage before and after our currently elected President. I mention it as a civil war type conflict because its historical roots are founded in conflict. The election of their current president in 2019 only escalated the conflict as he has been a strong vocal voice against Russian affairs.

Yes the Ukraine is a sovereign nation under attack by an "outside" aggressor...but the nature of the conflict is steeped in Russian culture. An attack on Poland would have been quite a different world conflict. As a world we (as in the UN) cannot stand strongly on the grounds of responding to an attack on a sovereign nation because this type of conflict under UN aggression occurred as recently as the attack on Libya to remove Khaddafi...an evil violent man was removed yes...but imposing a peace keeping force in a war scenario (ordering Libya to be a "no fly zone") then attacking their military (tanks) under the enforcement of a no-fly zone...what constitutes a sovereign nation?

A similar (in theory) hypothetical would be a scenario where Texas became "fed up" with our federal response to border control and convinced Nevada and New Mexico to break off from the US as a whole. Texas elects an anti-USA type "president" and accepts a Russian "offer" to provide military aid to protect Texas and its "allies" from a US military response (to bring the rogue states back into the US). Before Russia had the opportunity to put missles once more on our borders...would we as a country mount a military option to take Texas back... to keep this scenario from happening?

I view war on any level of conflict as tragic and hold out hope that such conflicts could be resolved in a peaceable manner before such heart sick events unfold. These surgical air strikes minimize casualties on both sides...but occupation involves ground troops and armor support...which is where the true tragedy of war takes its toll in casualties ...and the horrors of war burn into lifetime memories."

The world has gone mad it seems...similar aggression goes unabated in Africa...but because no "power players" are involved it is both allowed and unnoticed.

Why has Russia "held back"? My opinion is Putin had no intention of governing the Ukraine...he wanted regime change with Zalenski removed from office and a negotiated withdrawl with assurances that Ukraine would not become a part of NATO.

As a nation we were willing to go to war when Cuba offered to put Russian missles near our border...it was like a gun being put to our head.
...yet we presume Russia is over reacting when the Ukraine threatens to join NATO.

What went wrong ? Putin thought there might exist enough dissent within the Ukraine to topple its president...a civil war with shared history between the two countries is hard to stomach. The world's quick rush to side with the Ukraine has escalated the tension beyond any any easy resolvement.

The Ukraine is no small nation...2nd largest European country...and any kind of real takeover would involve a large commitment of ground troops making it a bloody mess which I suspect was not Putins intention. He gambled on an effort to minimize casualties on both ends by using "surgical" strikes vice overwhelming power...whatever his original goals were...they don't exist now. War should always be a last resort because it never plays out with met expectations.

[I-5]

Excellent post, tarlhawk. I agree with every word you said.

[RiverDog]

The world has gone mad it seems...similar aggression goes unabated in Africa...but because no "power players" are involved it is both allowed and unnoticed.

Why has Russia "held back"? My opinion is Putin had no intention of governing the Ukraine...he wanted regime change with Zalenski removed from office and a negotiated withdrawl with assurances that Ukraine would not become a part of NATO.

As a nation we were willing to go to war when Cuba offered to put Russian missles near our border...it was like a gun being put to our head.
...yet we presume Russia is over reacting when the Ukraine threatens to join NATO.

A pledge that Ukraine won't join NATO is just one of Putin's demands. He's also demanded that NATO not admit any of the former USSR states and remove any troops or weapons deployed to countries that entered the alliance after 1997, which would include much of eastern Europe, including Poland, the former Soviet countries of Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and the Balkan countries. Bottom line is that he's trying to establish a 'new world order', reclaiming the countries that broke away from the motherland when the Soviet Union dissolved. He's trying to re-constitute the old USSR.

What went wrong ? Putin thought there might exist enough dissent within the Ukraine to topple its president...a civil war with shared history between the two countries is hard to stomach. The world's quick rush to side with the Ukraine has escalated the tension beyond any any easy resolvement.

The Ukraine is no small nation...2nd largest European country...and any kind of real takeover would involve a large commitment of ground troops making it a bloody mess which I suspect was not Putins intention. He gambled on an effort to minimize casualties on both ends by using "surgical" strikes vice overwhelming power...whatever his original goals were...they don't exist now. War should always be a last resort because it never plays out with met expectations.

Good analysis. I find it hard to believe that Putin is so out of control that he doesn't realize the nearly impossible task that lay ahead for him even if he's successful in toppling the government. As you said, Ukraine is a country of some 40 million people. Does he really think that given the kind of resistance they've encountered and the amount of support they've received from the west, that they'd willingly accept the puppet government he'd install if he's successful in toppling Zelensky?

[RiverDog]

Yesterday two Russian fighter jets entered Swedish airspace. The Swedish scrambled two of their own fighters in response. Their foreign minister condemned the violation, calling it "unacceptable."

The incident follows a decision by the Swedish government to send weapons and supplies to Ukraine, the first time since 1939 that they have sent military equipment to a country at war.

Neither Sweden or neighboring Finland are members of NATO, and they share about 1,000 miles of border with Russia. Both countries are deepening their ties to NATO and may consider joining the alliance, something that Russia has repeatedly threatened the two countries if they were to do so.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/sw ... uxbndlbing

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/15 ... n-kyiv-spt

So what happens if the Swedes and Fins apply to join NATO? Does Russia attack them, too?

[I-5]

I totally agree he is trying to re-constitute the USSR, which is an impossible journey that will not only fail, but potentially cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives...and for what? He reminds me of Hitler's expansion ambitions, which ironically were destroyed by their winter advance to Russia. The good thing about today is that Russians have access to news outside of what the government tells them. They are still mostly on Putin's side, but he can only keep his version of the facts going for so long...eventually, it's the trouble he causes to his own people that could topple him.

[RiverDog]

I totally agree he is trying to re-constitute the USSR, which is an impossible journey that will not only fail, but potentially cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives...and for what? He reminds me of Hitler's expansion ambitions, which ironically were destroyed by their winter advance to Russia. The good thing about today is that Russians have access to news outside of what the government tells them. They are still mostly on Putin's side, but he can only keep his version of the facts going for so long...eventually, it's the trouble he causes to his own people that could topple him.

I've always said that what brought down the Soviet Union was CNN. Once their people started learning of what the world outside of their own half acre was like, they wanted a piece of the action, too. Or as Russell Wilson would say, why not me? That's why I think that time is on our side, that the longer this goes on, the more likely Putin will fail.

These aren't your typical sanctions. They are a form of warfare. A blockade is supposedly an act of war, denying the free flow of goods in and out of a country, and what we're doing to the Russians is essentially the same thing. And they're more than just government-imposed sanctions. Private industry is getting in on the act, too. Some of the biggest economic sanctions have come from Visa and Mastercard as they are blocking Russian banks from their networks. Microsoft, Facebook, YouTube, and Google are all blocking Russian news channels from accessing their platforms. Shell Oil has terminated their joint venture with a Russian state-run company. Maersk has suspended all shipments to/from all Russian ports. I've never seen anything like it.

There might be a silver lining in this cloud. It seems to have united us at a time when we've never had such stark divisions. People are united against Russia. It's a subject that everyone can agree on, our only differences being in what means we use to stop them.

[c_hawkbob]

The good thing about today is that Russians have access to news outside of what the government tells them.

The other good thing about today is the removal of the element of surprise. He wanted to start his invasion off with a "shock and awe" campaign but couldn't pull it off with Biden giving daily updates of troop and artillery movements, complete with satellite images as well as intelligence assuring everyone that what was coming out of Putin's mouth was pure tripe, complete with intelligence reports. Everybody knew exactly what he had planned and when.

[RiverDog]

The good thing about today is that Russians have access to news outside of what the government tells them.

The other good thing about today is the removal of the element of surprise. He wanted to start his invasion off with a "shock and awe" campaign but couldn't pull it off with Biden giving daily updates of troop and artillery movements, complete with satellite images as well as intelligence assuring everyone that what was coming out of Putin's mouth was pure tripe, complete with intelligence reports. Everybody knew exactly what he had planned and when.

Good point. Not only was it intelligence that the Ukrainians could use in their own defense, but it also pre-empted any kind of disinformation that Putin might have come up with to justify his actions.

I just came across this article:

Germany seized the world's largest mega-yacht worth $600 million belonging to Russian oligarch Alisher Usmanov, according to Forbes report. Usmanov's yacht, which has been docked in Hamburg, Germany, for months for a refitting, is the first to be seized since Russia's attack on Ukraine began on February 24.

Dilbar, a 512-foot yacht that weighs 15,917 tons, "is the largest motor yacht in the world by gross tonnage," according to Lürssen, the German ship's maker.

Usmanov bought the custom-built yacht for an estimated $600 million and it took 52 months to build, according to Forbes. Usmanov has spoken highly of Russian President Vladimir Putin in the past.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ge ... Y17_snsJbg

[c_hawkbob]

I saw that about that Yacht; good! Hit 'em all where it hurts the most, eventually they'll grow a pair and confront Putin about it.

[Aseahawkfan]

We still have to prepare for war with Russia, period. No longer a theoretical, but we cannot let this guy keep pushing. Putin is fortunately old and will die soon (good riddance). But if a president as hawkish replaces him, then there is little doubt they will keep expanding.

I'm sorry. 7 days is not a long time to take another nation. We took Iraq in 30 days. If Putin takes Ukraine's capitol in less than a month, he is on an absolutely fine timetable. These sanctions are not stopping Russia at all. I have little idea why some of you think they are working just as idiots claimed the sanctions against Russia after Crimea worked or stupid censures form the United Nations.

What toppled Russia was not CNN, it was less aggressive and weaker Russian leadership. Putin is not that guy. He's not Gorbachev or Yeltsin. Putin is a throwback to a Stalin. He's not gonna crack like Gorbachev and Yeltsin.

As far as Putin sees it, allowing the West to defeat him with sanctions would be admitting the West has beat him and he is weak. I don't think that is going to happen.

People keep hoping for something that has never happened: a Russian strongman getting assassinated by his own people. That would be a first in history and throw Russia into even worst chaos as I'm not even sure who would replace Putin.

The chances of Putin backing down to sanctions from the West is so low as to be infinitesimal.

If America and the West are not absolutely aware they now have to plan to make war with Putin, they are as stupid as Europe was when they allowed Hitler to rise to power and failed to kill Stalin before he consolidated his power in Russia. They just keep thinking they can isolate Russia with sanctions and calling them bad names. With these dictators, it does not work. You have to kill them like we did Saddam, Khaddafi, and forced Hitler to do. Otherwise, they just become emboldened.

How many lives would have been saved if we killed Hitler before he rose to power? How many lives saved if we had just finished off Stalin when we had the chance? We just keep making the mistake of waiting and thinking we're untouchable by men like Putin and by nations like China, Iran, and North Korea. We just keep letting them build up power and thinking we can stop them economically. And it just keeps being a mistake.

Even if we don't go in now, we need to prepare as though we will go in soon to take out Russia, whatever the cost, we need to prepare to settle this once and for all with Russia. No more letting them off the hook. The power of the Communist dictators and the oligarchs must be ended forever.

[RiverDog]

Now a truly dark side of this war:

Why Russian-born NHL players are mostly silent about Ukraine invasion

Among the 41 Russia-born players currently in the NHL, only Washington star Alex Ovechkin and Calgary defenseman Nikita Zadorov have weighed in about the war. That list is not expected to grow much, if at all, given the threats that exist in Russia for players and their families.

“It’s difficult for all the Russian players in the league,” said Brian MacLellan, general manager of the Capitals, who have three other Russians on their roster in addition to Ovechkin. “There’s a lot of pressure put on them to have a political opinion either way, and they’re trying to balance out how they live their lives and what their political opinions are and the repercussions that could happen back home. It’s a difficult situation for these guys.”

They (Russian born NHL hockey players) said players have been told not to share opinions about Ukraine because of the political climate back home, where the Russian parliament is considering making it a crime to spread what the government considers fake news about its military efforts in Ukraine.

Agent Dan Milstein represents more than a dozen Russian and Belarusian players who have appeared in an NHL game this season, including defending champion Tampa Bay’s Nikita Kucherov and Andrei Vasilevskiy. He said he has received threats by email and on social media since telling ESPN many of his clients are dealing with harassment.

The NHL’s lone Russian player who has voiced opposition to Putin, New York Rangers winger Artemi Panarin, erased all elements of that criticism from his Instagram account and made it private.

Agents who spoke to The AP said the majority of the threats made have come on social media and do not think Russian players in North America are in more immediate danger than the general population. Many instead emphasized the threat for players’ friends and family members back home if any speak out against the war.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 365790002/

Although I don't have any of them as friends in my inner circle, I've worked with a number of native Russians and naturalized American citizens, helped a couple study for their citizenship tests. I sure hope that they're not having to deal with any kind of harassment regardless of their politics.

[Aseahawkfan]

Not to mention if they have family in Russia. Putin is not beyond killing someone's family to get them to comply. Putin and his crew are basically gangsters running a nation.