Instagram QB's

[EntiatHawk]

I have no reason why I even did this but I found it interesting from a visual perspective.


Here is Wilson's and Kaepernick's instagram sites. I am not judging either one but you can see how each want to be portrayed here.


http://instagram.com/dangerusswilson


http://instagram.com/kaepernick7

[NorthHawk]

A striking difference, but you can understand it as Russ has a wife and family, while Kap is still out exploring life.

[Anthony]

A striking difference, but you can understand it as Russ has a wife and family, while Kap is still out exploring life.

I am sure there is a lot more to do with it then that as I can find other single QBs who are way more like Wilsons than Kaps. Kap just has not figured it out yet.

[EntiatHawk]

Yeah, I understand the Single versus Married perspective and that was the first thing I thought. But there is just the way the whole visual comes off. Wilson comes off older and more mature where Keap comes off like his age and persona we see in other areas. I am not saying it is bad, it was just an interesting visual comparison I thought.

[NorthHawk]

I hope Kapaernick matures.
It would be good for the NFL and the rivalry with SF.

[yoder]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Two different personalities, two different Quarterbacks. Given that it comes down to leading your team and winning games (which they're both capable of), I'd take the Wilson personality any day of the week. I think it helps for the community around him as well. Positive PR builds fans, a picture of your shoe collection...I'm not so sure.

With that said, if Kaep was our QB...I would puke...simply because of his personality alone. Sure we have some cocky players as well, I just don't like the guy. He's cocky in a different kind of way.

[Hawktawk]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Two different personalities, two different Quarterbacks. Given that it comes down to leading your team and winning games (which they're both capable of), I'd take the Wilson personality any day of the week. I think it helps for the community around him as well. Positive PR builds fans, a picture of your shoe collection...I'm not so sure.

With that said, if Kaep was our QB...I would puke...simply because of his personality alone. Sure we have some cocky players as well, I just don't like the guy. He's cocky in a different kind of way.

Exactly Yoder. Kap is an explosive athlete with every physical tool except the one between the ears. If he had a brain he would be unbeatable, even by RW.
I have a good friend who is a former pitcher for the Oakland A's. He is a lifelong 9ers fan who has all kinds of cool memorabilia from the golden era of 9er football. He CANNOT STAND the way Kap represents himself, the way he dresses like a gangster for press conferences, his stupid in game mental errors, etc.

And for all the fans who "hope he matures" well I don't. I hope he implodes. I hate the 9ers, they make me want to puke. I detest Hairball. I loathe their fans who put up a billboard IN SEATTLE with their crusty old Lombardis on it and chanted "Seahawks Suck" on MNF after beating ANOTHER TEAM. F them if they never win another game I'm cool.

Id much rather have a good conference rivalry with AZ or the Rams, teams with coaches and players I respect than this group of lawless arrogant frauds............

[burrrton]

And for all the fans who "hope he matures" well I don't. I hope he implodes.

Thank you. I hope he drags that franchise into the crapper.

Nothing personal, and I certainly hope he keeps his personal life straight, but if he's playing for an NFL team not named "Seahawks", I hope he never wins another game (unless, of course, a SF win would help the Hawks more).

[Hawktawk]

+1

[EntiatHawk]

The best would be a 20 mil a year contract with 65 Mil guaranteed then implodes

[Hawk Sista]

This is the EXACT point we were making to future last off-season. The pictures show what we were all saying - colin the 4.0 hard-worker seems to be a dude from the past...if he ever existed.

[RiverDog]

I can sympathize a tiny bit with Kaepernick. I was 30 years old before I got married for the first time, and during that interim, I did a lot of things that I'm not very proud of. It took me about 8 years or so longer to figure out life as Russell Wilson seems to have. But then again, I wasn't the "face of the franchise" asking my fans to pay me some ungodly sum of money so their kids could put a life sized poster of me on the back of their bedroom doors.

Kaepernick doesn't have to be an angel. He just has to acknowledge everyone in his fan base and quit doing the little things that annoy them, like his pose with the Miami baseball cap and refusing to take off his headphones during his post game interviews. Russell Wilson appeals to everyone in his fan base, including old farts like me. Kaepernick appeals to a much narrower segment of Niners nation.

[HumanCockroach]

This is the EXACT point we were making to future last off-season. The pictures show what we were all saying - colin the 4.0 hard-worker seems to be a dude from the past...if he ever existed.

Well according to Wika he graduated with a 4.1 and is a good Christian boy, who is guided everyday to do Gods will.... Something tells me he needs to do a little work on his communication skills, I feel fairly confident God's not telling him to make the decisions he is.... Just my guess of course, no way can I "know God's" will or mind, just kind of doubt it.

[burrrton]

I was going to say earlier, to agree with RD's sentiment, except for the most thuggish/@sshole-ish behavior, I cut kids like Kaep a wide berth.

I can't crucify someone for being a product of their upbringing, in which you draw all over your body and wear headphones 24/7 to try to look cool and so on, because, again in agreement, I was there, too.

Just don't put him anywhere near the conversation about how RW conducts and carries himself. They're two different people and you (Future) don't have to put your guy up with a choir boy like RW to argue he should be cut a break sometimes.

[Hawk Sista]

Don't get me wrong...........I am soooo thankful that there were no phone cameras/video/facebook/instagram/ etc... during my twenties. I totally feel for folks going through that time in their lives with all the social media around. I am 100% certain I would have made bad decisions about what to post and I'm quite sure it would not have been too difficult for others to capture me in the act of doing something stupid.

Still, there is a distinct difference between the two QBs in terms of maturity and leadership...to deny it is to deny the truth. We were making this point last off-season and some folks disagreed - vehemently. My personal disdain for Kap and the Niners notwithstanding, it is pretty freakin' clear now that what we were saying relative to leadership and maturity was spot on.

[Hawk Sista]

This is the EXACT point we were making to future last off-season. The pictures show what we were all saying - colin the 4.0 hard-worker seems to be a dude from the past...if he ever existed.

Well according to Wika he graduated with a 4.1 and is a good Christian boy, who is guided everyday to do Gods will.... Something tells me he needs to do a little work on his communication skills, I feel fairly confident God's not telling him to make the decisions he is.... Just my guess of course, no way can I "know God's" will or mind, just kind of doubt it.

YUP!

[Futureite]

This is the EXACT point we were making to future last off-season. The pictures show what we were all saying - colin the 4.0 hard-worker seems to be a dude from the past...if he ever existed.

You judge people too hard. Like or dislike someone all you want - but don't let thst cloud your judgment. For example, I think Richard Sherman is a complete a-hole that plays people (not just his opponents) like a fiddle, but that does not mean he is not a tireless worker or devoted to his craft. He obviously has a winning mindset once he steps on the field, and despite his love of the media he knows when to put the work in off of it.

Kap may be a little self absorbed, but it's ridiculous to discredit the work that he has done based upon a sideways hat. You think Jay-Z didn't work hard? Eminem? Terrell "I love me some me" Owens? Muhammed Ali? Should I keep going? Just because you don't like someone's attitude or style does not mean you can logically discredit their work ethic - or their intelligence.

You know, Kap has had some struggles, but to attribute that to style or a flamboyant character is ridiculous. I seem to remember Wilson getting the ball late in the 4th deep in our territory twice in the NFCCCG and putting up 3 pts. He wasn't exactly clutch when he handed the ball off on 4th down in Lynch's chest on a play that could have ended the game. Or when he fumbled on the first play or threw a ball that went right through Eric Reid's hands the next drive. Fact is he made his mistakes too, despite his humble mental makeup.

[Futureite]

Don't get me wrong...........I am soooo thankful that there were no phone cameras/video/facebook/instagram/ etc... during my twenties. I totally feel for folks going through that time in their lives with all the social media around. I am 100% certain I would have made bad decisions about what to post and I'm quite sure it would not have been too difficult for others to capture me in the act of doing something stupid.

Still, there is a distinct difference between the two QBs in terms of maturity and leadership...to deny it is to deny the truth. We were making this point last off-season and some folks disagreed - vehemently. My personal disdain for Kap and the Niners notwithstanding, it is pretty freakin' clear now that what we were saying relative to leadership and maturity was spot on.

I disagree with this on every level possible. You are not at the practice field. Not in the filmroom or the weight room or the huddle. You just discredited a 4.0 GPA with the quite "if he ever was (a hard worker)". If you have discredited factual evidence if a strong work ethic or leadership, what does that say for the rest of your opinion?

Catch phrases do not make someone a leader. Neither does a Tim Tebowesque undying belief in oneself coupke with a herculian work ethic (Tebow has both). It the belief that others have in you, their willingness to follow you and your ability to.produce for them. You have no clue whatsoever if the 49ers' players buy in on all of those levels with Kaep - none. You are still caught up in image interviews, and how you want your leader to look. Doesn't work that way. You don't know these guys.

Exhibit A: Tiger Woods.

You'll probably hate this example, but Ben Roethlisberger is a hell of a leader. You can try to discredit him all you want with any number of examples, but he's been to 3 SBs and I guarantee that team believes in him.

[NorthHawk]

Like it or not, the starting QB - and especially one reportedly asking for 18+ million is the face of the franchise.
He has embarrassed the 49ers at least twice in the last year. A year where he wants a huge contract.
That shows a lack of focus or at least a level of immaturity that other franchise QBs in the league haven't shown.
Go down the list - there aren't many top paid QBs that in any way make their teams doubt them, their loyalty to their team, or their actions off the field. Even most of the high paid draft picks from years ago didn't and those that did weren't in the league for long.

Think about it. If he can't even take care of his own business at the most important time in his career, how is he going to get the respect to lead the rest of the team who do take care of their off field business? What might his actions say to rookie teammates who are trying to figure out their way in the NFL?

He has all the talent in the world but what separates the great from the good is between the ears. I hope he grows up soon because we fans in this division deserve to see great football from 2 very good teams.

[RiverDog]

I disagree with this on every level possible. You are not at the practice field. Not in the filmroom or the weight room or the huddle. You just discredited a 4.0 GPA with the quite "if he ever was (a hard worker)". If you have discredited factual evidence if a strong work ethic or leadership, what does that say for the rest of your opinion?

Catch phrases do not make someone a leader. Neither does a Tim Tebowesque undying belief in oneself coupke with a herculian work ethic (Tebow has both). It the belief that others have in you, their willingness to follow you and your ability to.produce for them. You have no clue whatsoever if the 49ers' players buy in on all of those levels with Kaep - none. You are still caught up in image interviews, and how you want your leader to look. Doesn't work that way. You don't know these guys.

Exhibit A: Tiger Woods.

You'll probably hate this example, but Ben Roethlisberger is a hell of a leader. You can try to discredit him all you want with any number of examples, but he's been to 3 SBs and I guarantee that team believes in him.

First off, you need to change the "you" to "we". You have no more of an idea what it takes to be a leader on an NFL team than any of us. You're acting as if you have some sort of unique knowledge as to what those requirements are.

Secondly, the discussion here goes far beyond simply leading a 53-player team. It's how his fan base, the people that are paying him, or will be paying him, that $18-20M, want him to represent their team, ie the Face of the Franchise. Like North Hawk says, he is your representative whether you like it or not. Kaepernick is fracturing your fan base with the image he's portraying, with his I Don't Give a Rip attitude towards even simple requests, such as taking his head phones off during interviews or not holding up a baseball cap from a different region. The guy is immature, does what ever suits his fancy regardless of what others may think of his actions. He's miles apart from Russell Wilson, just like Pete Carroll is miles apart from your douche bag coach Harbaugh when it comes to being a class act.

[Futureite]

I disagree with this on every level possible. You are not at the practice field. Not in the filmroom or the weight room or the huddle. You just discredited a 4.0 GPA with the quite "if he ever was (a hard worker)". If you have discredited factual evidence if a strong work ethic or leadership, what does that say for the rest of your opinion?

Catch phrases do not make someone a leader. Neither does a Tim Tebowesque undying belief in oneself coupke with a herculian work ethic (Tebow has both). It the belief that others have in you, their willingness to follow you and your ability to.produce for them. You have no clue whatsoever if the 49ers' players buy in on all of those levels with Kaep - none. You are still caught up in image interviews, and how you want your leader to look. Doesn't work that way. You don't know these guys.

Exhibit A: Tiger Woods.

You'll probably hate this example, but Ben Roethlisberger is a hell of a leader. You can try to discredit him all you want with any number of examples, but he's been to 3 SBs and I guarantee that team believes in him.

First off, you need to change the "you" to "we". You have no more of an idea what it takes to be a leader on an NFL team than any of us. You're acting as if you have some sort of unique knowledge as to what those requirements are.

Secondly, the discussion here goes far beyond simply leading a 53-player team. It's how his fan base, the people that are paying him, or will be paying him, that $18-20M, want him to represent their team, ie the Face of the Franchise. Like North Hawk says, he is your representative whether you like it or not. Kaepernick is fracturing your fan base with the image he's portraying, with his I Don't Give a Rip attitude towards even simple requests, such as taking his head phones off during interviews or not holding up a baseball cap from a different region. The guy is immature, does what ever suits his fancy regardless of what others may think of his actions. He's miles apart from Russell Wilson, just like Pete Carroll is miles apart from your douche bag coach Harbaugh when it comes to being a class act.

You are right; I cannot write the definition of a leader. But I can provide plenty if examples where the traits that some people harp on or promote mean squat. And Tim Tebow is the poster boy for that. He's the best possible face of the franchis anyone could ever want. NFL players do not follow his lead though because he does not get results. They do follow a gyy like Big Ben despite his off the field problems because he does get results. That's true in any area of life.

Kaep is fracturing our base? No more than Wilson was fracturing yours when the Hawks were 4-4 in the middle of 2012. I read the complaints on this same board at that time. People come out of the woodwork when you lose, and they begin to.point fingers. Some people follow specifically to do just that. You'll get the same "fracturing" effect from the same grouo of Hawk fans if the Hawks slump at any point. I even saw the same effect with Montana/Young, as the people that hated the organization for letting Montana go couldn't wait to rip Young. Same thing with Alex/Kaep.

If kaep begins to have legal trouble, that's a diff story and I agree. If he is guilty of something in Miami I even posted - move on. But I could care less about interviews, Instagrams, or magazine covers. I see zero evidence of how that hurts my team's performance, including last yr. If people want to correlate that behavior to his "failure" in the playoffs, so be it. Pretty shaky logic IMO. I think he was a great leader last yr. He did what leaders do in the face of struggles and intense criticism midseason over his play and came back with a great final 1/4th of the yr and postseason.

[HumanCockroach]

Per you Future, Kaepernick hasn't provided ANY results that matter. Wilson has. Wilson 1. Kaepernick 0.

Per you that is the ONLY thing that matters.

Edit: and by the way, you're right, the end of the Championship game is the first time Wilson has looked "flustered" or like the moment was "to big" for him. Thankfully, he corrected that problem, and moved on.

[Futureite]

Per you Future, Kaepernick hasn't provided ANY results that matter. Wilson has. Wilson 1. Kaepernick 0.

Per you that is the ONLY thing that matters.

Edit: and by the way, you're right, the end of the Championship game is the first time Wilson has looked "flustered" or like the moment was "to big" for him. Thankfully, he corrected that problem, and moved on.

Ok I'll agree with that. Championcip games are the benchmark and one way or another, RW got it done and Kaep didn't. I do want to clarify that RW is clearly a clutch QB. There are pkenty of examples to prove that. My main point was always that the same exact on the field missteps were judged differently for each of our QBs because of who they are off the field. But even vets like Tom Brady and Drew Brees have mental errors in big moments. It has or will happen to every QB, no mayter who they are.

I am beginning to question what Kaep brings off the field though. It is possible I misjudged him. Only time will tell that.

[Hawk Sista]

You, Future...... Are doing what I might try to do were I saddled w/ an immature, pot-smoking QB. I'd defend him because he was my guy...so I will cut you a bit of loyalty slack.

The rest of the NFL watching world sees Kap as a douchebag....an über talented dolphin hat wearing ego driven dude who sounds like a jerk in a press conference. Jay Cutler does too, an apparently his teammates like & respect him...so I will also give you that "WE" don't have a clue what kind of teammate he is.

Given the choice between the two on maturity & leadership using the evidence available, I feel comfy saying that 80%++++ of the nation would take our guy. Argue all you want.....it is what it is. Our guy is the community guy, the baby-kissing face of the franchise. Your guy has some questions to answer about drugs & sexual abuse. Last year, this was an intangible feeling we had & you disagreed. The last 10 months have been the setting for those hunches to become tangible pieces of evidence. Facts are facts.

Keep in mind, I'm not judging the kid on being a human. Minus the fame and legal trouble, my 20s were admittedly more like his than Wilson's.

[HumanCockroach]

Yep, every QB makes those mistakes ( never said otherwise) Wilson has had his share, however, I think our definition of "flustered" is different, and I'll leave it at that. The thing that makes talented, smart QB's great, and simply "good" QB's is mitigating those mistakes, and NOT repeating them. They are IMHO the difference between a Vick or Romo, and a Brady or Rodgers. Right now Kap sits in the second level there, and Wilson doesn't, that does not mean he can't change that, or that Wilson is definitely going to continue on the path he is on, simply that Kap has made two critical errors at the end of high profile games that cost him and the Niners that Lombardi, and Wilson hasn't.

I am not "writing" off Kaepernick's career, or anointing Wilson's only pointing out where they are as of now. What Wilson has done over the first two years in the league is unparalleled, NO QB has matched it in NFL history, Kaepernick hasn't done that. ( please be clear, in one area or another random QB's have matched him, but not even close when taken as a whole).

[Futureite]

Yep, every QB makes those mistakes ( never said otherwise) Wilson has had his share, however, I think our definition of "flustered" is different, and I'll leave it at that. The thing that makes talented, smart QB's great, and simply "good" QB's is mitigating those mistakes, and NOT repeating them. They are IMHO the difference between a Vick or Romo, and a Brady or Rodgers. Right now Kap sits in the second level there, and Wilson doesn't, that does not mean he can't change that, or that Wilson is definitely going to continue on the path he is on, simply that Kap has made two critical errors at the end of high profile games that cost him and the Niners that Lombardi, and Wilson hasn't.

I am not "writing" off Kaepernick's career, or anointing Wilson's only pointing out where they are as of now. What Wilson has done over the first two years in the league is unparalleled, NO QB has matched it in NFL history, Kaepernick hasn't done that. ( please be clear, in one area or another random QB's have matched him, but not even close when taken as a whole).

Well I hear ya but I disagree. If Patrick Willis picks up that fumble and runs it for a TD maybe we are having the opposite conversation. Maybe RW drives you right back to win the game. Who knows. But there are always other factors involved.

I used to argue about Lebron's level of clutch all the time. People claimed the same thing: got to big games and lost, passed on game winning shots. I would point to his ridiculous 4th QTR at Detroit to take his team to the finals and so many other examples - but people still claimed he was not in the same league as Kobe, Duncan or other players that won multiple titles. Now he got the pieces he needed - Ray Allen to hit a miracle shot in game 6 last yr - and he is a clutch champion. In reality he is the same guy with different luck.

Steve Young was criticized for yrs for losing to the Cowboys every yr in the playoffs. He played poorly or made 4th qtr mistakes in several of those games. People pointed to those mistakes and devalued his ability to perform in the clutch. Same with Elway, my childhood idol. One of the best clutch QBs of alltime, but not regarded as such until his D showed up for him in the SB.

Right or wrong that's the perception and I accept it.

[Futureite]

You, Future...... Are doing what I might try to do were I saddled w/ an immature, pot-smoking QB. I'd defend him because he was my guy...so I will cut you a bit of loyalty slack.

The rest of the NFL watching world sees Kap as a douchebag....an über talented dolphin hat wearing ego driven dude who sounds like a jerk in a press conference. Jay Cutler does too, an apparently his teammates like & respect him...so I will also give you that "WE" don't have a clue what kind of teammate he is.

Given the choice between the two on maturity & leadership using the evidence available, I feel comfy saying that 80%++++ of the nation would take our guy. Argue all you want.....it is what it is. Our guy is the community guy, the baby-kissing face of the franchise. Your guy has some questions to answer about drugs & sexual abuse. Last year, this was an intangible feeling we had & you disagreed. The last 10 months have been the setting for those hunches to become tangible pieces of evidence. Facts are facts.

Keep in mind, I'm not judging the kid on being a human. Minus the fame and legal trouble, my 20s were admittedly more like his than Wilson's.

I agree with you to a point. I am not saying the QB's persona or community presence means nothing. I nust have a hard time devaluing a kid with a track record of working extremely hard - both in study and in building his athletic prowess - because people do not like the way he talks, or dresses, or the press conferences that he gives. None of us know if JH has instructed him to give as little to the media as possible. His community work has been documented since college. I bonestly, - speaking as a man rather than a fan - do not care how he dresses, or talks or where he hangs out. I care about the substance of who he is. How hard he works, how accountable he is, how he handles adversity. That's as far as I can take it as a fan.

Legal trouble is different. We'll see how that goes. If I was wrong then I was wrong. If this shakes out to nothing but a fabrication, then my view is the same as before moving forward.

[RiverDog]

You are right; I cannot write the definition of a leader. But I can provide plenty if examples where the traits that some people harp on or promote mean squat. And Tim Tebow is the poster boy for that. He's the best possible face of the franchis anyone could ever want. NFL players do not follow his lead though because he does not get results. They do follow a gyy like Big Ben despite his off the field problems because he does get results. That's true in any area of life.

Kaep is fracturing our base? No more than Wilson was fracturing yours when the Hawks were 4-4 in the middle of 2012. I read the complaints on this same board at that time. People come out of the woodwork when you lose, and they begin to.point fingers. Some people follow specifically to do just that. You'll get the same "fracturing" effect from the same grouo of Hawk fans if the Hawks slump at any point. I even saw the same effect with Montana/Young, as the people that hated the organization for letting Montana go couldn't wait to rip Young. Same thing with Alex/Kaep.

If kaep begins to have legal trouble, that's a diff story and I agree. If he is guilty of something in Miami I even posted - move on. But I could care less about interviews, Instagrams, or magazine covers. I see zero evidence of how that hurts my team's performance, including last yr. If people want to correlate that behavior to his "failure" in the playoffs, so be it. Pretty shaky logic IMO. I think he was a great leader last yr. He did what leaders do in the face of struggles and intense criticism midseason over his play and came back with a great final 1/4th of the yr and postseason.

Horsepucky! Tebow IMO would be a horrible "Face of the Franchise". Agree with his style or not, he is without a doubt the most polarizing player to have entered the league in the past 5 years. He would split a fan base in two more so than anyone I could think of. Plus one of the attributes of good leadership is that you have to have high performance standards, and Tebow's football ability, at least as far as being a quarterback, is zilch. He is simply not credible. It would be like having as a boss a person that's a hell of a nice guy but grossly incompetent.

Do you understand what the term "Face of the Franchise" means? It's more than being a goody two shoes and it's more than simply being a good player. Kaepernick has 1/2 of what it takes. Wilson has both halves.

[HumanCockroach]

Yep, every QB makes those mistakes ( never said otherwise) Wilson has had his share, however, I think our definition of "flustered" is different, and I'll leave it at that. The thing that makes talented, smart QB's great, and simply "good" QB's is mitigating those mistakes, and NOT repeating them. They are IMHO the difference between a Vick or Romo, and a Brady or Rodgers. Right now Kap sits in the second level there, and Wilson doesn't, that does not mean he can't change that, or that Wilson is definitely going to continue on the path he is on, simply that Kap has made two critical errors at the end of high profile games that cost him and the Niners that Lombardi, and Wilson hasn't.

I am not "writing" off Kaepernick's career, or anointing Wilson's only pointing out where they are as of now. What Wilson has done over the first two years in the league is unparalleled, NO QB has matched it in NFL history, Kaepernick hasn't done that. ( please be clear, in one area or another random QB's have matched him, but not even close when taken as a whole).

Well I hear ya but I disagree. If Patrick Willis picks up that fumble and runs it for a TD maybe we are having the opposite conversation. Maybe RW drives you right back to win the game. Who knows. But there are always other factors involved.

I used to argue about Lebron's level of clutch all the time. People claimed the same thing: got to big games and lost, passed on game winning shots. I would point to his ridiculous 4th QTR at Detroit to take his team to the finals and so many other examples - but people still claimed he was not in the same league as Kobe, Duncan or other players that won multiple titles. Now he got the pieces he needed - Ray Allen to hit a miracle shot in game 6 last yr - and he is a clutch champion. In reality he is the same guy with different luck.

Steve Young was criticized for yrs for losing to the Cowboys every yr in the playoffs. He played poorly or made 4th qtr mistakes in several of those games. People pointed to those mistakes and devalued his ability to perform in the clutch. Same with Elway, my childhood idol. One of the best clutch QBs of alltime, but not regarded as such until his D showed up for him in the SB.

Right or wrong that's the perception and I accept it.

IMO anytime you have to go to the "if" defense in a debate, or disagreement, your position's pretty damn weak. While we are at it, how about I throw in "if" Kaepernick is called for illegally kicking the ball forward the Niners not only lose, but lose handily scoring a TD in the game, had the sideline inactive player not interfered with one of the best gunners in the league he recovers the fumbled PR removing another score and providing more for Seattle in the process, if, if,if,if.... If isn't a position Future, it's an excuse. Willis DIDN'T pick it up, and he DIDN'T score, so regardless of how you feel about it, it didn't cost Seattle a thing.

Kaepernick has had the ball in his hand, two seasons in a row, with a chance to win a championship, and has failed BOTH times, with the SAME throw, to the SAME receiver, Wilson hasn't, and when he HAD to make the plays to win games in the post season he HAS come through.

[monkey]

Horsepucky! Tebow IMO would be a horrible "Face of the Franchise". Agree with his style or not, he is without a doubt the most polarizing player to have entered the league in the past 5 years. He would split a fan base in two more so than anyone I could think of. Plus one of the attributes of good leadership is that you have to have high performance standards, and Tebow's football ability, at least as far as being a quarterback, is zilch.

Do you understand what the term "Face of the Franchise" means? It's more than being a goody two shoes and it's more than simply being a good player. Kaepernick has 1/2 of what it takes. Wilson has both halves.

All I will say is, if Tebow is as you said, the most polarizing player yada yada, that only shows how far this society has fallen.
That a person, whose only "crime" is that he's a Christian, and the media HATES HIM FOR IT, should be openly mocked literally, ALL THE TIME, is such a joke.
Mock his QBing skills all wish, he's a terrible passer, (though he's a terrific athlete and football player, who would probably succeed at a couple other positions), but the media has turned him into the boogeyman because of his religious beliefs, and all it does is further prove what a FRAUD the mainstream media is.

[HumanCockroach]

You're really reaching Monkey. His religious beliefs aren't being attacked by the media, his ability is, his religious beliefs actually don't matter to many people, including fans, this is a matter of religious people looking for some sort of prejudice, and manufacturing it. People say Tebow sucks, and a non religious fan says "yep", a religious fan says " you hate him cause he's Christian". I have YET to see anyone, media or otherwise bash him for his religion, I HAVE seen people say they don't like the circus he brings with him, or his self promotion, or his ability to make EVERYTHING about "his religion", but say they hate his religion? Hate that he's Christian? Nope. It IS possible you know to be Christian, and not discuss it in EVERY conversation, or interview, or commercial or personal setting.

Sorry man, you are looking for an EXCUSE. The fact is TEBOW SUCKS AS AN NFL QB. And NOTHING changes that. He "divides"fan bases NOT because he is Christian, he divides them BECAUSE there are a LOT of Christian people that overlook his weakness' and continue to CLAMOR for him to play, while fans that are actually LOOKING at the body of work realise he can't play the position in the NFL. That is the divide, NOT some made up "hate" about what his religion is.

[RiverDog]

All I will say is, if Tebow is as you said, the most polarizing player yada yada, that only shows how far this society has fallen.
That a person, whose only "crime" is that he's a Christian, and the media HATES HIM FOR IT, should be openly mocked literally, ALL THE TIME, is such a joke.
Mock his QBing skills all wish, he's a terrible passer, (though he's a terrific athlete and football player, who would probably succeed at a couple other positions), but the media has turned him into the boogeyman because of his religious beliefs, and all it does is further prove what a FRAUD the mainstream media is.

I really didn't intend to turn this thread into another Tebow debate, but.... here we go again!

Tebow's being a Christian wasn't the problem. Russell Wilson is just as much of a Christian as Tim Tebow is, as was Jim Zorn, Steve Largent, Reggie White, Kurt Warner, and countless other high profile athletes. It's the way he went about advertising it that caused the rowel. When he was riding high on his 9 game winning streak, he was on every sports talk show imaginable, and the first words out of his mouth always had something to do about his religion. Personally, I got sick of it, and got tired of having to turn the dial or find the mute button while trying to watch or listen to my favorite programming. It was his PR machine, his off season speaking engagements, his Tebow Maniacs, ie "The Circus". There's only a few professional athletes that approach Tebow's polarization, the only one I can think of is Muhammad Ali.

I also disagree with your statement that the media 'hates' him. If anything, they've provided him with a disproportionate amount of coverage, the vast majority of it positive. Besides, Tebow foisted himself onto the media. If there are some out there in the media that 'hate' him as you claim they are, it's a little like complaining about fleas after you've been sleeping with the dogs.

[Futureite]

Yep, every QB makes those mistakes ( never said otherwise) Wilson has had his share, however, I think our definition of "flustered" is different, and I'll leave it at that. The thing that makes talented, smart QB's great, and simply "good" QB's is mitigating those mistakes, and NOT repeating them. They are IMHO the difference between a Vick or Romo, and a Brady or Rodgers. Right now Kap sits in the second level there, and Wilson doesn't, that does not mean he can't change that, or that Wilson is definitely going to continue on the path he is on, simply that Kap has made two critical errors at the end of high profile games that cost him and the Niners that Lombardi, and Wilson hasn't.

I am not "writing" off Kaepernick's career, or anointing Wilson's only pointing out where they are as of now. What Wilson has done over the first two years in the league is unparalleled, NO QB has matched it in NFL history, Kaepernick hasn't done that. ( please be clear, in one area or another random QB's have matched him, but not even close when taken as a whole).

Well I hear ya but I disagree. If Patrick Willis picks up that fumble and runs it for a TD maybe we are having the opposite conversation. Maybe RW drives you right back to win the game. Who knows. But there are always other factors involved.

I used to argue about Lebron's level of clutch all the time. People claimed the same thing: got to big games and lost, passed on game winning shots. I would point to his ridiculous 4th QTR at Detroit to take his team to the finals and so many other examples - but people still claimed he was not in the same league as Kobe, Duncan or other players that won multiple titles. Now he got the pieces he needed - Ray Allen to hit a miracle shot in game 6 last yr - and he is a clutch champion. In reality he is the same guy with different luck.

Steve Young was criticized for yrs for losing to the Cowboys every yr in the playoffs. He played poorly or made 4th qtr mistakes in several of those games. People pointed to those mistakes and devalued his ability to perform in the clutch. Same with Elway, my childhood idol. One of the best clutch QBs of alltime, but not regarded as such until his D showed up for him in the SB.

Right or wrong that's the perception and I accept it.

IMO anytime you have to go to the "if" defense in a debate, or disagreement, your position's pretty damn weak. While we are at it, how about I throw in "if" Kaepernick is called for illegally kicking the ball forward the Niners not only lose, but lose handily scoring a TD in the game, had the sideline inactive player not interfered with one of the best gunners in the league he recovers the fumbled PR removing another score and providing more for Seattle in the process, if, if,if,if.... If isn't a position Future, it's an excuse. Willis DIDN'T pick it up, and he DIDN'T score, so regardless of how you feel about it, it didn't cost Seattle a thing.

Kaepernick has had the ball in his hand, two seasons in a row, with a chance to win a championship, and has failed BOTH times, with the SAME throw, to the SAME receiver, Wilson hasn't, and when he HAD to make the plays to win games in the post season he HAS come through.

Lol okay, well let's talk again when RW has had the ball in his hands with the team needing him to make a play in the playoffs to win. Because that didn't happen last yr. You are in the envious position of trying to get me to prove something "won't" happen - which is impossible. Whereas you can point to a couple failures and claim RW would have come through. So I guess, enjoy that?

Kaep actually had come through in the clutch, in the postseason. I'd love to see RW cone into his own stadium as an.opposing QB facing his own D to see how he would fare in any playoff game, or if he would have had Seattle in position to win the SB if your D had instead done a faceplant like ours did in the SB and given up 34 pts. We will never know.

Like I said, enjoy the bragging rights .

[RiverDog]

Lol okay, well let's talk again when RW has had the ball in his hands with the team needing him to make a play in the playoffs to win. Because that didn't happen last yr. You are in the envious position of trying to get me to prove something "won't" happen - which is impossible. Whereas you can point to a couple failures and claim RW would have come through. So I guess, enjoy that?

Kaep actually had come through in the clutch, in the postseason. I'd love to see RW cone into his own stadium as an.opposing QB facing his own D to see how he would fare in any playoff game, or if he would have had Seattle in position to win the SB if your D had instead done a faceplant like ours did in the SB and given up 34 pts. We will never know.

Like I said, enjoy the bragging rights .

I would have thought that a big football fan like yourself would have watched the Super Bowl because if you did, you would surely remember how many third down plays Russell Wilson converted on in the first half before the rout began. I also kinda remember a 4th and 8 play in the NFCCG that put the Hawks on top to stay.

Clutch plays don't have to occur in the last 20 seconds of a game.

[HumanCockroach]

You really aren't making a lot of sense on this one Future. Your reasoning was "if" Willis picks up the fumble and runs it back for a TD, is it anymore of a valid argument that "if" lane picks up the fumbled punt return and runs it back? Or "if" Kaepernick doesn't illegally kick the ball forward that Bennett does the same? No, those are NOT valid arguments. I live in what ACTUALLY happened, and happens. You may be all for fantasy land, but I'm simply not making that trip with you.

Go ahead and believe that your hypothetical changes fact, I don't work that way.

[Futureite]

Lol okay, well let's talk again when RW has had the ball in his hands with the team needing him to make a play in the playoffs to win. Because that didn't happen last yr. You are in the envious position of trying to get me to prove something "won't" happen - which is impossible. Whereas you can point to a couple failures and claim RW would have come through. So I guess, enjoy that?

Kaep actually had come through in the clutch, in the postseason. I'd love to see RW cone into his own stadium as an.opposing QB facing his own D to see how he would fare in any playoff game, or if he would have had Seattle in position to win the SB if your D had instead done a faceplant like ours did in the SB and given up 34 pts. We will never know.

Like I said, enjoy the bragging rights .

I would have thought that a big football fan like yourself would have watched the Super Bowl because if you did, you would surely remember how many third down plays Russell Wilson converted on in the first half before the rout began. I also kinda remember a 4th and 8 play in the NFCCG that put the Hawks on top to stay.

Clutch plays don't have to occur in the last 20 seconds of a game.

Lol the clutch free play, right. You are stretching it River, and your are intelligent to know it. Like I said, it's a losing argument for me because until the next time your guy is in position to win a playoff game there is no way I can prove that he "wouldn't have". Nor do I care to, because I believe he is a clutch QB.

That said, I find it highly unlikely based upon the way he played after getting the ball twice in the redzone in the 4th that he could have come into Clink as an opposing QB V your D and drive the length of the field for the winning TD like Kaep haf do do when he "choked". But like I said, I cannot prove that - maybe he would have - and so you have the bragging rights.

Notice I'm conceding the bragging rights lol, so why not enjoy them .

[Futureite]

You really aren't making a lot of sense on this one Future. Your reasoning was "if" Willis picks up the fumble and runs it back for a TD, is it anymore of a valid argument that "if" lane picks up the fumbled punt return and runs it back? Or "if" Kaepernick doesn't illegally kick the ball forward that Bennett does the same? No, those are NOT valid arguments. I live in what ACTUALLY happened, and happens. You may be all for fantasy land, but I'm simply not making that trip with you.

Go ahead and believe that your hypothetical changes fact, I don't work that way.

I thought we were talking about end of game clutch play. Hense the reason I cited that specific play You say Kaep choked - or had the ball in his hands with a chance to win and didn't- and I'll say he doesn't even have that opportunity if not for Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson had the ball in his hands with a chance to win the game on a much easier play and he dudn't either dude.

If you want to talk about what actually happened, then let's. What actually happened was Seattle had a home game and a better football team than the 49ers, and so they won. End of narrative.

[Futureite]

Ok I have to say this:

Are you seriously claiming that the guy who only needed to execute a freaking handoff to ice a game is more poised than the guy that failed to execute a 2 min 80 yd game winning TD against the D a good number of you laud as the best of alltime? On the road, in the loudest stadium in the league?

Lol wow. I mean, sometimes you should just take the bragging rights when they're offered. I was actually tapping out on this one, conceding that your QB is clutch and he has the ring now, or "one way or another he got it done".

[Anthony]

Lol okay, well let's talk again when RW has had the ball in his hands with the team needing him to make a play in the playoffs to win. Because that didn't happen last yr. You are in the envious position of trying to get me to prove something "won't" happen - which is impossible. Whereas you can point to a couple failures and claim RW would have come through. So I guess, enjoy that?

Kaep actually had come through in the clutch, in the postseason. I'd love to see RW cone into his own stadium as an.opposing QB facing his own D to see how he would fare in any playoff game, or if he would have had Seattle in position to win the SB if your D had instead done a faceplant like ours did in the SB and given up 34 pts. We will never know.

Like I said, enjoy the bragging rights .

I would have thought that a big football fan like yourself would have watched the Super Bowl because if you did, you would surely remember how many third down plays Russell Wilson converted on in the first half before the rout began. I also kinda remember a 4th and 8 play in the NFCCG that put the Hawks on top to stay.

Clutch plays don't have to occur in the last 20 seconds of a game.

Lol the clutch free play, right. You are stretching it River, and your are intelligent to know it. Like I said, it's a losing argument for me because until the next time your guy is in position to win a playoff game there is no way I can prove that he "wouldn't have". Nor do I care to, because I believe he is a clutch QB.

That said, I find it highly unlikely based upon the way he played after getting the ball twice in the redzone in the 4th that he could have come into Clink as an opposing QB V your D and drive the length of the field for the winning TD like Kaep haf do do when he "choked". But like I said, I cannot prove that - maybe he would have - and so you have the bragging rights.

Notice I'm conceding the bragging rights lol, so why not enjoy them .

Dude you are not really conceding anything, you are giving yourself an out by saying he is clutch, but also say it is highly unlikey, again something you cannot prove. The fact is in the NFCCG RW made the big play, Kap chocked enough said.

[Anthony]

You really aren't making a lot of sense on this one Future. Your reasoning was "if" Willis picks up the fumble and runs it back for a TD, is it anymore of a valid argument that "if" lane picks up the fumbled punt return and runs it back? Or "if" Kaepernick doesn't illegally kick the ball forward that Bennett does the same? No, those are NOT valid arguments. I live in what ACTUALLY happened, and happens. You may be all for fantasy land, but I'm simply not making that trip with you.

Go ahead and believe that your hypothetical changes fact, I don't work that way.

I thought we were talking about end of game clutch play. Hense the reason I cited that specific play You say Kaep choked - or had the ball in his hands with a chance to win and didn't- and I'll say he doesn't even have that opportunity if not for Russell Wilson. Russell Wilson had the ball in his hands with a chance to win the game on a much easier play and he dudn't either dude.

If you want to talk about what actually happened, then let's. What actually happened was Seattle had a home game and a better football team than the 49ers, and so they won. End of narrative.

what are you talking about, RW made his play the throw to Kearse, Kap missed his the tip Int enough said.