I Feel History Coming This Monday in Seattle

[jshawaii22]

From Seahawks.com:
With one more Seahawks win, Carroll will surpass Mike Holmgren as the franchise's all-time winningest head coach in the regular season with 87 victories. Right now, the two coaches are tied at 86 wins apiece, with Carroll owning an 86-53 record and Holmgren holding an 86-74 mark.

20 less games... same # of wins not counting the postseason and 2 trips to the top. Hard to believe that I didn't like the decision when we first hired him. He went on that "Book Tour" and was speaking more about his leaving LA than coming to Seattle. I guess that's why I'm not a Team President.

[RiverDog]

From Seahawks.com:
With one more Seahawks win, Carroll will surpass Mike Holmgren as the franchise's all-time winningest head coach in the regular season with 87 victories. Right now, the two coaches are tied at 86 wins apiece, with Carroll owning an 86-53 record and Holmgren holding an 86-74 mark.

20 less games... same # of wins not counting the postseason and 2 trips to the top. Hard to believe that I didn't like the decision when we first hired him. He went on that "Book Tour" and was speaking more about his leaving LA than coming to Seattle. I guess that's why I'm not a Team President.

IMO regular season wins ranks down the chart in my book as the best yardstick. #1 Lombardi's, #2 SB appearances, #3 playoff wins, #4 playoff appearances, #5 regular season winning percentage.

Also, Pete's streak of not having lost a game by 10 or more points is pretty damn impressive, too.

[idhawkman]

From Seahawks.com:
With one more Seahawks win, Carroll will surpass Mike Holmgren as the franchise's all-time winningest head coach in the regular season with 87 victories. Right now, the two coaches are tied at 86 wins apiece, with Carroll owning an 86-53 record and Holmgren holding an 86-74 mark.

20 less games... same # of wins not counting the postseason and 2 trips to the top. Hard to believe that I didn't like the decision when we first hired him. He went on that "Book Tour" and was speaking more about his leaving LA than coming to Seattle. I guess that's why I'm not a Team President.

I like what both coaches did for the Seahawks. That said, I think Holmgren had a heavier lift than Carroll. Carroll had a few left overs from the XL Super Bowl Team. Holmgren had a franchise with a losing tradition for 90% of its history to change that stench in the organization.

[idhawkman]

I'd also like to add that Holmgren probably would have been quicker to the number had his DC that he brought with him survived. Unfortunately, losing him and having Holmgren go and find another DC to handle that side of the ball was a setback to his Seahawk efforts.

[RiverDog]

That said, I think Holmgren had a heavier lift than Carroll. Carroll had a few left overs from the XL Super Bowl Team. Holmgren had a franchise with a losing tradition for 90% of its history to change that stench in the organization.

In the two seasons prior to Holmgren's arrival in 1999, the Hawks went 8-8 in both years, and would have made the playoffs in the '98 season had it not been for the most egregious call in the most consequential moments in the form of the Vinne Testaverde helmut touchdown. Holmgren already had Walter Jones and Mack Strong on his roster, along with players like Ricky Watters, Joey Galloway, Cristain Fauria, and Shawn Springs, and was able to use Galloway as a huge asset in trade with the Cowboys.

In 2008, the Hawks went 5-11, and Mora followed that with a 4-12 season. By most accounts, Mora had lost the team. The only hold overs worth mentioning were Brandon Mebane, Jon Ryan, and Matt Hasselbeck, none of which measure up to the impact that Big Walt and Mack Strong had on Holmgren's teams. Additionally, Pete won a playoff game in his first season with his band of misfits, and by Year 3, the Hawks were a legitimate SB contender. It took Holmgren 6 years to win his first playoff game. Pete did it in his first year, and again in his 3rd, won the Lombari in Year 4.

IMO Holmgren had more in the cupboard than Pete did.

[idhawkman]

In the two seasons prior to Holmgren's arrival in 1999, the Hawks went 8-8 in both years, and would have made the playoffs in the '98 season had it not been for the most egregious call in the most consequential moments in the form of the Vinne Testaverde helmut touchdown. Holmgren already had Walter Jones and Mack Strong on his roster, along with players like Ricky Watters, Joey Galloway, Cristain Fauria, and Shawn Springs, and was able to use Galloway as a huge asset in trade with the Cowboys.

In 2008, the Hawks went 5-11, and Mora followed that with a 4-12 season. By most accounts, Mora had lost the team. The only hold overs worth mentioning were Brandon Mebane, Jon Ryan, and Matt Hasselbeck, none of which measure up to the impact that Big Walt and Mack Strong had on Holmgren's teams. Additionally, Pete won a playoff game in his first season with his band of misfits, and by Year 3, the Hawks were a legitimate SB contender. It took Holmgren 6 years to win his first playoff game. Pete did it in his first year, and again in his 3rd, won the Lombari in Year 4.

IMO Holmgren had more in the cupboard than Pete did.

and who was the QB when Holmgren arrived?

[NorthHawk]

and who was the QB when Holmgren arrived?

I think that speaks to the importance of the GM and Coach being on the same page.
Clearly Ruskell and Holmgren were not while Schneider and Carroll are.

[idhawkman]

I think that speaks to the importance of the GM and Coach being on the same page.
Clearly Ruskell and Holmgren were not while Schneider and Carroll are.

Holmgren came into the Seahawks as both but then they introduced Ruskell later.

[Hawktawk]

and who was the QB when Holmgren arrived?

QB was Jon Kitna who Holmgren initially praised, who staked the Hawks to an 8-2 start in Holmgrens first season including beating Favre at Lambeau before the team started swooning in the second half going 1-5, 9/7 and giving up the lead and the game in the WC round at the kingdome by allowing Marino to convert a first down on 3rd and 18 in the shadow of his goal line on the winning drive, giving marino the last win of his career as he was blown out 63-7 by Brunell and the Jags a week later.

Kitna played 14 years and beat Seattle and Holmgren as the cincinnati starter the year he was cut. Holmgrens team were emotionally fragile and road rash material only beating 2 teams on the road with a winning record in 10 seasons. They never won a road playoff game in Holmgrens tenure and as has been pointed out took 6 years to win a playoff game including losing to the 8-8 Rams for the third time of the year at home in 2004 after having blown a 16 point home lead with 6 minutes to play earlier in the season.They were mediocre to bad on defense other than the SB year and as horrible as the officiating was Holmgren did not help with his terrible clock management and emotional meltdown in XL.


In 2008 Holmgren mailed it in to the tune of 4-12 by refusing to adjust to losing every receiver on the team, refusing to establish the run etc. Holmgren left the cupboard bare and its hilarious there were many on this forum calling for him to be named the GM when Ruskell was canned.

Ill give him his due. he was a very good offensive mind and led the Hawks to some pretty good seasons but he can't carry PCs balls in a wheelbarrow and Knox wasn't too far behind him in terms of accomplishments.

[RiverDog]

and who was the QB when Holmgren arrived?

Jon Kitna, who started 27 games for Holmgren. Hass was gone after Pete's first year, so it was essentially a wash in that neither inherited the QB that was going to lead them to the SB.

[RiverDog]

Another player Holmgren inherited that was a long term starter and played every position on the OL during their 5 straight playoff appearances was Chris Gray.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess some of that's accurate, but think some seem to have forgotten that holmgrens team inherited was a team the previous owner spent years intentionally running into the ground, while Carroll arrived on a team that had recently been to the top, and was dedicated to returning to as quickly as possible.

[politicalfootball]

Well Pete Carroll is old and his contract is up in 2019. We may not resign him, who would take his place as head coach and do as good as he does ?

[RiverDog]

Well Pete Carroll is old and his contract is up in 2019. We may not resign him, who would take his place as head coach and do as good as he does ?

There's too many unknowns to answer that question with any degree of certainty. Does Pete want another contract? Does he want to stay in Seattle? Who will our new owner be and what, if any, changes will he/she make?

[Hawktawk]

Well Pete Carroll is old and his contract is up in 2019. We may not resign him, who would take his place as head coach and do as good as he does ?

Schotty is making a case so far. Lets see how the next season and a quarter plays out. people forget bev fool was a pretty hot property a few short years ago.

[jshawaii22]

Hard to compare the teams, I just remember Pete did a immediate turnover of players like no other in our history. Some called it 'loyalty' where Coach Holmgren never liked playing younger players, even when the old ones needed to be pushed out the door.

They both took us to the Super Bowl, and they will probably both end up in the HoF, so it's really nice to have two great coaches to compare to.

[HumanCockroach]

Interesting, I remember it quite differently. Holmgren disassembled and played predominantly young talent on the offensive side of the ball, while signing veterans throughout the defense. Even discussed it at one time as his biggest mistake in Seattle.

[RiverDog]

Holmgren's biggest problem was this guy nicknamed 'The Walrus". As one player put it, he was 'The Show", insisting on running everything himself, had to be brought kicking and screaming into hiring a GM, calling his own offensive plays which caused him to ignore his defense, was out of touch with his players an their observations, and lose focus on game management situations like utilizing the clock/timeouts. His temper and his arrogance caused players to avoid him.

But he was responsible for the 2nd best era of Seahawk football, so I can't be too critical of his performance.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not offering my opinion on his issues, I'm relaying information. It doesn't bother me either way, I'm simply saying it was a youth movement on O while populating the D with older expensive free agents.

[jshawaii22]

I remember Coach H held a 'loyalty' towards older starters that extended far too long into their careers, especially after they were hurt. He would always assume you got your starting job back, no matter what. Maybe it was just his last couple of years after the "GM" was taken out of his title, but it's what I remember the most.

Coach Pete made competition the key. No job safe, no loyalty and turned the roster based on who was buying into the program, similar to what happened the last 2 years with the defense.

Not saying which is necessarily more right or wrong -- both proved to be great coaches for us.

We have a new leader in the clubhouse. Congrats to Coach Pete for becoming the all-time regular season winningest coach in our history.

[politicalfootball]

Seattle has a rich history and the winningest coach is joined by the ring of honor and our Superbowl banner and NFC champs banners among other things for this franchise. Pete Carroll is the best coach Seahawks ever and coached a Superbowl win vs Denver Broncos in 2013.

[NorthHawk]

It was interesting to listen to him talk about it after the game and say GM John Schneider was the winningest GM in Seattle Seahawks history.

[idhawkman]

I remember Coach H held a 'loyalty' towards older starters that extended far too long into their careers, especially after they were hurt. He would always assume you got your starting job back, no matter what. Maybe it was just his last couple of years after the "GM" was taken out of his title, but it's what I remember the most.

Coach Pete made competition the key. No job safe, no loyalty and turned the roster based on who was buying into the program, similar to what happened the last 2 years with the defense.

Not saying which is necessarily more right or wrong -- both proved to be great coaches for us.

We have a new leader in the clubhouse. Congrats to Coach Pete for becoming the all-time regular season winningest coach in our history.

Yeah that was one dark spot on Holmgren about keeping the vets way too long. Gray was a perfect example of that.

Here, here, to Pete taking over the crown for now.

[idhawkman]

It was interesting to listen to him talk about it after the game and say GM John Schneider was the winningest GM in Seattle Seahawks history.

JS should have been GM of the year a few times and has never gotten the recognition he deserves.