Did the Founding Fathers see this coming?

[RiverDog]

As I said at the time the vote on impeachment should be secret, like a jury.

Senators and Representatives aren't randomly selected citizens like jurors are. They are elected by popular vote to represent us and we have every right to know how they vote on everything. Impeachment is not a judicial process, it's a Constitutional one, with one branch of the government performing a check and balance on the other.

After Mattis comments Lisa Murkowski said she agreed with them and mused about whether some more people might speak their conscience. She said she was "struggling" with whether to support DJT in november. If you agree with mattis whats the struggle Lisa??? Ben Sasse who grew a pair then they shrunk off as November approaches only said Mattis is a man of integrity. Moscow Mitch refused to answer any questions as most of the other R senators. so to answer when they might do something I5 its NEVER. They are despicable political snakes. Theres 1 republican left, Mitt Romney. They say wait till Novemeber and vote him out as he tries to bankrupt the postal service and his corrupt AG tries to deconstruct the russia and ukraine investigations.Barr has said any investigations into the 2020 vote will be approved by him alone.. Intelligence says russia is at it again. I feel real safe with our voting system let me tell yiou
The founders met their match

The moderate Republicans like Murkowski and Sasse are worried that if they come out against Trump that it could cost them the Senate. The Republicans are having to defend nearly twice the number of seats that the Dems have to, and with the House already in control of the Dems, there's a very real chance that they could lose both Houses of Congress and the Presidency, so they're being very deliberate and calculating. If the shoe were on the other foot, the Dems would be doing the same thing.

[Hawktawk]

In an impeachment they BECOME JURORS. Politics should not play a role. Its an obvould fatal flaw in the process, way too hard to get rid of a political bad actor in the white house as has been proven over and over. Only an extremely moral and principled Mitt Romney became the only senator of the sitting party to vote to convict in 250 years . Elections are political processes. Removal of a corrupt president should be law enforcement based,, same model , period.

It was a huge mistake by the founders.

[RiverDog]

In an impeachment they BECOME JURORS. Politics should not play a role. Its an obvould fatal flaw in the process, way too hard to get rid of a political bad actor in the white house as has been proven over and over. Only an extremely moral and principled Mitt Romney became the only senator of the sitting party to vote to convict in 250 years . Elections are political processes. Removal of a corrupt president should be law enforcement based,, same model , period.

It was a huge mistake by the founders.

It is a political process, so obviously politics are going to play a huge role. Other than having to leave office, there is absolutely no adverse consequences of impeachment, no imprisonment, no fines. Heck, the presiding judge is merely a figurehead with almost no role to play. You can't have secret votes for elected officials as they would no longer be responsible to their constituents and would end up functioning like some sort of Star Chamber. I have every right to know exactly how my Senator votes on every issue. The founding fathers did just fine with impeachment. They wanted the bar to be set very high as they wanted to make it very difficult to overturn an election.

One of the problems is term limits. If Senators were limited to just two terms like the President is, they would not be so likely to vote for their political hides as many of them would be lame ducks. As it currently sits, you have Senators and Representatives that are addicted to their offices. They should be performing a short term public service, not making a lifetime occupation out of it.

[Aseahawkfan]

that was just the only link I could find to the unmarked, unnamed troops patrolling around the WH. My point was the facts not the opinion.

That type of thing is done all the time by law-enforcement and is a standard operating procedure. MSNBC is just using it to further the their narrative.

But hey, put your money where your beliefs are. Arm up and get ready. As I stated, the 2nd Amendment is exactly for this occasion. It's there to ensure the American people, you and everyone who thinks like you included, to step up and fight back should a president engage in tyranny. If you believe he won't give up the election and has the support for a military coup in the United States, then arm up.

And you know what c-bob, should that happen I will be right there with you getting my gun and ready to fight. Any president that doesn't respect the election process and won't leave the White House and tries to use a secret police force to do so, he has got to go by force.

I even have to say I would be surprised if even IDhawkman would support some secret police or military coup by Trump. Maybe he worships Trump so much he would, but I think even he would draw the line at that point and not allow such a precedent to be set by any president.

[Aseahawkfan]

In an impeachment they BECOME JURORS. Politics should not play a role. Its an obvould fatal flaw in the process, way too hard to get rid of a political bad actor in the white house as has been proven over and over. Only an extremely moral and principled Mitt Romney became the only senator of the sitting party to vote to convict in 250 years . Elections are political processes. Removal of a corrupt president should be law enforcement based,, same model , period.

It was a huge mistake by the founders.

We will see won't we in November how much of a flaw it is.

You know as well as I do there are so many crimes on the books that if we allowed the law to dictate things, we could turn anyone into a criminal. Until they remove this legalistic BS from our legal system that allow this type of trash, I'm ok with the political process serving as a way to mediate this.

I'd bet you money right now if you were in office and someone wanted to find a crime on you, they could. If you stayed mostly clean, it would probably be some bureaucratic crime and then they would seed the media to make you seem like a terrible person. The powers that be can literally do this to anyone and find a group of believers.

I'd arm up if I were you and prepare to fight in case the Orange Clown Tyrant does find some traction trying to hold office illegally.

[c_hawkbob]

That type of thing is done all the time by law-enforcement and is a standard operating procedure

No it's not. There is a reason for badge numbers, force identification and body cams.

[RiverDog]

You know as well as I do there are so many crimes on the books that if we allowed the law to dictate things, we could turn anyone into a criminal.

I have a real life example to highlight this point. A couple of weeks ago, I was walking our dog on a horse trail when we encountered a rattlesnake. My dog came within inches of it but it didn't strike. Nevertheless, it was within about 100 feet of some residences, the trail was pretty popular with residents, and there are quite frequently young children that play in the nearby creek, so I picked up a rock and killed it, disposing of the carcass in some high weeds. I posted the incident on our neighborhood blog as a precautionary warning to others, and boy, you'd think that I had just burned the American flag. One person said that it was illegal to kill rattlesnakes in the state of Washington.

I did some research on the claim of it being illegal to kill a Western Diamondback rattlesnake. It wasn't an endangered or even a threatened species so it wasn't protected by the federal government. Not finding anything on the internet, I decided to call the non emergency number for our sheriff's department and asked them. The person who answered transferred me to a deputy. He didn't know and suggested that I speak with the Department of Fish and Wildlife and transferred my call. After waiting for about 5 minutes for someone to answer the phone with no opportunity to leave a call back number, I hung up.

We have so damn many laws on the books that even the police can't keep up with them. How in the hell do they expect us citizens to to know what's legal and what's not? If they pass enough laws, they'll make lawbreakers out of all of us.

[I-5]

They see tyranny and yet don't seem willing to arm up to stand against it.

Is that a joke? What would arming up accomplish exactly?

I don't know why they haven't done it, but I'd love to see a group of ardent BLM members arm up and surround state capitols, the way lockdown protestors did in full gear, yet didn't get any kind of militarized police response. At least none that I could see in the news.

Edit: I do agree with Riv that an election is the ideal way to get him out of office, I'm just saying he's a terrible president with zero leadership skills and uninterested in engaging with anyone but his base. I didn't call for him to be taken out right this minute (since I know his party isn't going to do it), so chill out.

[RiverDog]

I don't know why they haven't done it, but I'd love to see a group of ardent BLM members arm up and surround state capitols, the way lockdown protestors did in full gear, yet didn't get any kind of militarized police response. At least none that I could see in the news.

The key point is in your last sentence. We may not have seen it, but it's a pretty good bet that the police were on high alert during the incidents you referred to, as they would if a similar incident occurred relative to the BLM movement. With some exceptions, particularly those involving the POTUS, I think that the reaction to the protests has been quite measured and appropriate. They're not intervening unless lives are in danger. It doesn't please me to see all the property damage and looting, but it's better than the alternative, which is to move in with overwhelming force and make the problem worse. Best to let this thing play out.

The one thing that does concern me is how these protests are contributing to the spread of COVID. A lot of innocent people are likely to die as a direct result of these protests.

[Aseahawkfan]

No it's not. There is a reason for badge numbers, force identification and body cams.

They have undercover officers who do not carry around their badge numbers or cams that they put in crowds to scan for problems within the crowd. This is literally Law-enforcement 101 for handling large groups. You plant undercover officers within the crowds to surveille problem areas for response. They do this in the military as well. This type of police intelligence is done all the time now and in the past. It isn't something new. You can look it up with a general search on the web showing that seeding protests with law enforcement to provide real time intel is a standard operating procedure.

Now if we get some real secret police making people disappear dead for good, then we'll be in the same camp. Stories like this with unmarked police and undercover officers infiltrating protests could have been written during any presidential administration including Democrat presidents like Bill Clinton and Obama. It certainly didn't mean they were building secret police forces, though we did build a drone killing program during Bush Jr. that both Obama and Trump have used extensively. Let's hope that doesn't start in America.

[Aseahawkfan]

Is that a joke? What would arming up accomplish exactly?

I don't know why they haven't done it, but I'd love to see a group of ardent BLM members arm up and surround state capitols, the way lockdown protestors did in full gear, yet didn't get any kind of militarized police response. At least none that I could see in the news.

Edit: I do agree with Riv that an election is the ideal way to get him out of office, I'm just saying he's a terrible president with zero leadership skills and uninterested in engaging with anyone but his base. I didn't call for him to be taken out right this minute (since I know his party isn't going to do it), so chill out.

What do you mean what would arming up do? Are you really not prepared to fight with weapons if a real tyrant comes in that plans to kill you? You're just going to let China drive tanks over you and wander home quietly hoping it gets taken care of peacefully at some point?

If Donald Trump is a real tyrant like Marcos or what not, then you as an American need to be prepared to arm up per your 2nd Amendment right and fight. That is why it is so hard to respect liberals. They aren't for real. They don't believe in armed revolution which is what founded this nation and ended slavery. It stops tyrants like China and North Korea from happening. Armed people standing against tyrants because real tyrants don't care about your protesting. They will shoot and kill you to disperse you and if you can't fight back, then you're done. They'll keep killing and dispersing peaceful protesters with force until they are done.

I would like to see armed BLM protesters as well. That would be great. I know the Black Panthers exercised their 2nd Amendment rights and got screwed over by the government just like they got screwed over multiple times taking up arms on their behalf. Now is the time to push it because folk of African descent should die before they ever allow themselves to be tyrannized again.

[Aseahawkfan]

I have a real life example to highlight this point. A couple of weeks ago, I was walking our dog on a horse trail when we encountered a rattlesnake. My dog came within inches of it but it didn't strike. Nevertheless, it was within about 100 feet of some residences, the trail was pretty popular with residents, and there are quite frequently young children that play in the nearby creek, so I picked up a rock and killed it, disposing of the carcass in some high weeds. I posted the incident on our neighborhood blog as a precautionary warning to others, and boy, you'd think that I had just burned the American flag. One person said that it was illegal to kill rattlesnakes in the state of Washington.

I did some research on the claim of it being illegal to kill a Western Diamondback rattlesnake. It wasn't an endangered or even a threatened species so it wasn't protected by the federal government. Not finding anything on the internet, I decided to call the non emergency number for our sheriff's department and asked them. The person who answered transferred me to a deputy. He didn't know and suggested that I speak with the Department of Fish and Wildlife and transferred my call. After waiting for about 5 minutes for someone to answer the phone with no opportunity to leave a call back number, I hung up.

We have so damn many laws on the books that even the police can't keep up with them. How in the hell do they expect us citizens to to know what's legal and what's not? If they pass enough laws, they'll make lawbreakers out of all of us.

Exactly. Crap like this. Zoning laws, traffic violations, tax laws, firearms laws, local codes, and layers upon layers of legalistic crap to find some way to make a person into a criminal. Even when Eric Garner died from getting gang-arrested by the cops, I couldn't help but think, "You had to gang arrest a guy using a chokehold because he was selling loose cigarettes? What?" That's just nuts.

Then the drug laws are also nuts. If you have this amount of the drug, it's a felony. If you have this much, it's nothing. And they don't spend much time investigating how you ended up involved in a crime. Even Floyd, dude used a $20 counterfeit bill and got gang-arrested and murdered over a forgery charge that I'm not even sure he knew was a forgery. The police don't tend to look that deep if you don't have a lot of money. Someone could plant drugs in your house and set you up or put child porn or something on your computer. You don't even know how it got there. Suddenly your arrested and the newspapers are destroying your reputation. If you don't have the money or juice to fight it, you're done.

It's crazy what you can do to destroy someone's reputation and character. It's why you will be unlikely to see some guy getting elected who doesn't have a lot of juice or the backing of major parties win.

[RiverDog]

Exactly. Crap like this. Zoning laws, traffic violations, tax laws, firearms laws, local codes, and layers upon layers of legalistic crap to find some way to make a person into a criminal. Even when Eric Garner died from getting gang-arrested by the cops, I couldn't help but think, "You had to gang arrest a guy using a chokehold because he was selling loose cigarettes? What?" That's just nuts.

Then the drug laws are also nuts. If you have this amount of the drug, it's a felony. If you have this much, it's nothing. And they don't spend much time investigating how you ended up involved in a crime. Even Floyd, dude used a $20 counterfeit bill and got gang-arrested and murdered over a forgery charge that I'm not even sure he knew was a forgery. The police don't tend to look that deep if you don't have a lot of money. Someone could plant drugs in your house and set you up or put child porn or something on your computer. You don't even know how it got there. Suddenly your arrested and the newspapers are destroying your reputation. If you don't have the money or juice to fight it, you're done.

It's crazy what you can do to destroy someone's reputation and character. It's why you will be unlikely to see some guy getting elected who doesn't have a lot of juice or the backing of major parties win.

Years ago, I had a guy working for us that got arrested for throwing rocks at his girl friend's house as she supposedly had thrown rocks at his house, too, so he had decided to retaliate. He was arrested and was charged with domestic violence malicious mischief and plead guilty. Since the damage was over $500, or about the cost of a broken window, it elevated the charge to a felony. At the time, our company had a zero tolerance policy of not employing anyone convicted of a felony, so he got fired. He was unaware both of our policy towards felony crimes and that he was pleading guilty to a felony.

[I-5]

If Donald Trump is a real tyrant like Marcos or what not, then you as an American need to be prepared to arm up per your 2nd Amendment right and fight.

I can't even process the silliness of this idea. I didn't think anyone actually thinks this way, so I still think you just be joking.

As I mentioned in my agreement with Riv, I still believe in our election process.

[RiverDog]

If Donald Trump is a real tyrant like Marcos or what not, then you as an American need to be prepared to arm up per your 2nd Amendment right and fight.

As I mentioned in my agreement with Riv, I still believe in our election process.

I do think that if Trump loses in a close election in a manner similar to how he beat HRC in 2016 that there's going to be a lot of fireworks, that he'll make up some conspiracy to avoid having to accept the fact that he lost. However, I don't think that Trump is going to have to be physically removed. If anything has been made clear over the past few weeks, Trump does not have ironclad control over the military, a prerequisite for any despot to remain in power, which is ironic as the large majority of military folks tend to vote Republican. As General Mattis pointed out, members of the military are sworn to an oath to "support and defend the Constitution". They are sworn only take orders from the President. There's a difference in that wording. Should a conflict arise, they are required by their oaths to defend the Constitution.

However, I don't completely discount the possibility that some of his supporters might react violently, especially in light of how we've changed the game on how we react to violent protests. But I don't think it gets that far. I think that Biden wins the election by around 100 electoral votes and 6-8million popular votes.

I understand how Trump was behind in the polls at this time of year in 2016, but this election cycle is different. 4 years ago, Trump was just starting to build his base. In over 3 years since his election, he hasn't expanded that base, nor he hasn't even tried. His job approval/disapproval hasn't gotten above water during his entire presidency and has bounced around in the 40-48% region no matter the circumstances. In addition to the 2016 battleground states of PA, MI, and WI, Trump is behind in FL and AZ, and recent polls in TX, NC, and OH, all states he won decisively in 2016, are now rated as toss ups. A lot has happened in the past few months, and none of it has been good for Trump. Losing those military guys is going to hurt him.

[Hawktawk]

It is a political process, so obviously politics are going to play a huge role. Other than having to leave office, there is absolutely no adverse consequences of impeachment, no imprisonment, no fines. Heck, the presiding judge is merely a figurehead with almost no role to play. You can't have secret votes for elected officials as they would no longer be responsible to their constituents and would end up functioning like some sort of Star Chamber. I have every right to know exactly how my Senator votes on every issue. The founding fathers did just fine with impeachment. They wanted the bar to be set very high as they wanted to make it very difficult to overturn an election.

One of the problems is term limits. If Senators were limited to just two terms like the President is, they would not be so likely to vote for their political hides as many of them would be lame ducks. As it currently sits, you have Senators and Representatives that are addicted to their offices. They should be performing a short term public service, not making a lifetime occupation out of it.

That's why they should have been able to vote secretly. Its NOT LEGISLATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. its guilty or innocent.It should not have been a political process at all. Its law and order.This president is the most corrupt in history, like federal penitentiary crooked.Were he not preident he might already be there along with Jarred, donnie JR, eric and svetlana

I5 asked if the founders saw this coming and I say obviously they screwed the pooch.When Jeff Flake, a man of integrity says 35 Republicans would vote to convict in a secret ballot clearly there should be one. Founders Fd up....

As you say there is no adverse consequence for impeachment, none. Not even removal from office. It took 250 years and 3 impeachments for a single moral integrity infused Senator and 2012 presidential candidate to vote against his own party. The process is a joke other than dinging up a president's approval rating a bit. I think it's ridiculous we can have a straight up criminal, a traitor to america over and over, mentally unstable enough to generate talk of the 25th amendment among members of his cabinet almost immediately. A president now so lawless and unfettered that his corrupt AG is settling scores, pressuring prosecutors to drop charges etc, deconstruct his treasonous acts with russia using riots and a pandemic as cover..

They are threatening people for telling the truth https://www.the-sun.com/news/987380/tru ... em/.Bolton apparently has the goods on impeachment type behavior in dealings with many countries. I guess trump's own Niece who is 55 is writing a searing book about his bizarre behavior,What a danger he is to the world, a total takedown. I suppose he will sue her.

My point is it was a dreadful failing by the founders to bestow so much power on a president and put members of his own party in charge of determining his fate. Way too much reliance on human goodness and honesty/character. I'm sick of hearing we can vote him out in November. He should have been out 2 weeks into his term. And only a rube has any faith in our integrity of our elections. Trump was likely installed by Vlad Putin in a razor electoral victory, cheated with Ukraine to help him in 2020 , is trying to defund the postal service to force people to choose health or voting as he knows his army of trumanzees will be packing their AKs to the polls.Hes forcing people planning to attend his superspreader trumptard rallies to sign a waiver promising not to sue if they get covid. You cant make this up. He doesn't care how many die after the election. He could steal this election with his utter sowing of chaos.

Asea thinks trumpanzees like ID hawkman will stand up to this guy if he takes too much power like he has for years already The military should turn their guns on trump, tell him time is up and save the people the trouble. Yes i mean it. I've never had less faith in my country, in my government, in 40% of americans give or take that support this madness. What's been undone can not be made whole again.

[Hawktawk]

I do think that if Trump loses in a close election in a manner similar to how he beat HRC in 2016 that there's going to be a lot of fireworks, that he'll make up some conspiracy to avoid having to accept the fact that he lost. However, I don't think that Trump is going to have to be physically removed. If anything has been made clear over the past few weeks, Trump does not have ironclad control over the military, a prerequisite for any despot to remain in power, which is ironic as the large majority of military folks tend to vote Republican. As General Mattis pointed out, members of the military are sworn to an oath to "support and defend the Constitution". They are sworn only take orders from the President. There's a difference in that wording. Should a conflict arise, they are required by their oaths to defend the Constitution.

However, I don't completely discount the possibility that some of his supporters might react violently, especially in light of how we've changed the game on how we react to violent protests. But I don't think it gets that far. I think that Biden wins the election by around 100 electoral votes and 6-8million popular votes.

I understand how Trump was behind in the polls at this time of year in 2016, but this election cycle is different. 4 years ago, Trump was just starting to build his base. In over 3 years since his election, he hasn't expanded that base, nor he hasn't even tried. His job approval/disapproval hasn't gotten above water during his entire presidency and has bounced around in the 40-48% region no matter the circumstances. In addition to the 2016 battleground states of PA, MI, and WI, Trump is behind in FL and AZ, and recent polls in TX, NC, and OH, all states he won decisively in 2016, are now rated as toss ups. A lot has happened in the past few months, and none of it has been good for Trump. Losing those military guys is going to hurt him.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

https://abacusdata.ca/biden_trump_2020_abacus-data/ Barring some miracle cure for Covid or some other blockbuster event he can take credit for Trump cannot win the election fairly.https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/tr ... l-ratings/ As you say he wasn't a known commodity to voters as a candidate, his bluster and tough talk appealed to some. After 3.5 years of non stop $h!t talking, bizarre crazy behaviors, self inflicted crises and now his utter ineptitude as a leader, his pathological dishonesty and narcissism is on full display. Biden is not Hillary either. I'm sure a campaign ad will highlight the fact that on the same day last October Biden was penning an op ed saying we were unprepared for a pandemic and Trump was tweeting that Tim Cook needed to make the apple iphone easier to use among another 50 or so frivolous non serious tweets.... Nobody is too enthusiastic about Biden, the vote is against trump and based on how this lifelong republican feels my guess there will be a lot.

I worry about Russia or China hacking this though. Trumps the best thing that ever happened to them. They did it before, at least Russia did and nothing happened to them. They interfered in the midterms, hacked Democratic senators e mail etc.Trumps paranoia about all mail in ballots tells me theres a bigger plan than defunding the post office in play.
I worry about the integrity of our elections.

[RiverDog]

I worry about Russia or China hacking this though. Trumps the best thing that ever happened to them. They did it before, at least Russia did and nothing happened to them. They interfered in the midterms, hacked Democratic senators e mail etc.Trumps paranoia about all mail in ballots tells me theres a bigger plan than defunding the post office in play.
I worry about the integrity of our elections.

It's good to see you posting again, my friend!

The foreign interference has mainly to do with propaganda and misinformation. They've never been able to actually hack election results.

I found it ironic how even Rasmussen, well known for producing poll results consistently favoring Trump, has him pegged as running 12% behind Biden. I'd love to hear Idahawkman, whom thinks Rasmussen is the gold standard in polling, spin that one.

And the really bad news for Trump is that he's in even worse shape in swing states he won in 2016: FL, MI, NC, OH, PA, and WI, he's down 52-35. Plus there's states like Texas, Arkansas, Iowa, and Arizona, all red states in 2016, that are toss ups or leaning towards Biden. Trump is not polling within the MOE of any of the states Hillary won. If the election were held today, Trump would get his butt kicked.

But we really do need to govern our enthusiasm. Polling isn't an exact science, especially in state wide surveys, which are the ones that matter the most. It's going to be a long 5 months between now and November, and a lot can happen, especially in these truly unstable and unpredictable times. Biden has a huge liability with his size 9 foot and size 10 mouth and is clearly suffering from memory loss. I sure hope that his campaign manager keeps him in the stable. The only way Biden can lose this election is if he shoots himself in the foot. Even his Creepy Joe allegation seems to have faded away, his accuser having been discredited.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Oval Office nowadays. Trump always hits the ceiling when he's given bad news about the polls, and these are the worst of his presidency. I got a real belly laugh out of the Trump campaign's demand that CNN retract and apologize for a poll they showed that had Trump down by 14% to Biden.

[NorthHawk]

The foreign interference has mainly to do with propaganda and misinformation. They've never been able to actually hack election results.

The electronic voting machines are supposed to be air gapped, but there was a report after the last election that a lot weren't and were accessible
from the internet for maintenance. There's an old adage in the IT Security world that anything connected to the internet can be hacked and the
Russian and Chinese have some of the very best hackers. That's what is most worrying for a fair election process unless there is a paper record
of the votes to compare.

[RiverDog]

The electronic voting machines are supposed to be air gapped, but there was a report after the last election that a lot weren't and were accessible from the internet for maintenance. There's an old adage in the IT Security world that anything connected to the internet can be hacked and the Russian and Chinese have some of the very best hackers. That's what is most worrying for a fair election process unless there is a paper record of the votes to compare.

That's my biggest worry about any kind of electronic voting machines or internet based applications. I'd much rather see paper ballots or mechanical voting machines. Any system managed by humans can be manipulated, even paper ballots, but it's a lot more problematic than electronic machines.

I don't like vote by mail. There's too much of a possibility of a voter allowing someone else to use their ballot. Besides, there's something genuine about my showing up at a polling place, after having make a modest personal sacrifice of time or planned activities, and announcing that I am here to exercise my right to vote. Voting by mail makes it too easy.

[Aseahawkfan]

wrong thread.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's my biggest worry about any kind of electronic voting machines or internet based applications. I'd much rather see paper ballots or mechanical voting machines. Any system managed by humans can be manipulated, even paper ballots, but it's a lot more problematic than electronic machines.

I don't like vote by mail. There's too much of a possibility of a voter allowing someone else to use their ballot. Besides, there's something genuine about my showing up at a polling place, after having make a modest personal sacrifice of time or planned activities, and announcing that I am here to exercise my right to vote. Voting by mail makes it too easy.

I prefer vote by mail. Voting should be easy to do. I would rather have a test proving you know what you're voting on than to have actual voting a pain in the ass. For someone like who me who works odd shifts and sleeps at odd hours, I'd need the polls open at those hours to vote. If they had 24 hour open polls, then I'd be more ok with it. I'm still very ok with mail in voting. People that vote like to do so. Those that don't care won't even register to vote. I don't like starting conspiracies assuming voting will be hacked in any substantial way. There has been little to no proof that vote hacking or misused mail in ballots have affected any election in a substantial way.

Event the supposed Russia hacking that was investigated involved foreign use of social media. From what I read of how Russia and other foreign nations used social media, it was more a matter that the people were from a foreign nation than what they did. There are plenty of Americans spreading lies on social media too without the help of foreign nations. No way to stop Americans from believing in stupid things.

So vote by mail and an eventual electronic voting system is a good, intelligent use of technology to encourage more Americans to be involved in politics using modern systems.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't even process the silliness of this idea. I didn't think anyone actually thinks this way, so I still think you just be joking.

As I mentioned in my agreement with Riv, I still believe in our election process.

Really? You can't imagine someone believing in the 2nd Amendment for its intended purpose? You can't imagine someone wanting to take up arms against a violent tyrant trying to suppress freedom and attack Americans as you claim Trump is trying to do?

What exactly would you do if a real tyrant took over like a Saddam Hussein or a government like the Chinese government? Would you just accept it and move on? You are the one claiming Donald Trump is a real tyrant on the scale of Marcos who used violence to hold power for 31 years. It took violence to drive him out. Just like it took violence to drive out Saddam Hussein. And the Chinese government is using violence to quell protesters in Hong Kong and anyone else in the nation who questions them.

And you wonder why folk like you are not real to me. You don't have the will to stand up for what you believe in. You're all talk and hot air, but if it really came down to having to take up arms against a real tyrant, you'd be sitting in Canada hoping the big bad mean tyrant never attacks. You do not what have what it takes to defend freedom.

No, it wasn't a joke. It was calling you out to fight against a man you believe is a real tyrant and a real threat to freedom in the same way Marcos was in the Philippines and China is to their people. People that believe those types of ideas, especially those that believe them strongly, sacrifice their lives and take up arms so people like you and I can have freedom in places like Canada and America.

Here is what I guarantee you. If I felt a real tyrant had taken over America. A tyrant like Hitler, Marcos, the Chinese Government, Saddam Hussein, or anything of the kind, I would take up arms and be ready to fight and die to get rid of him. I would be thanking The Founders for ensuring the 2nd Amendment was part of the Constitution so that I could take up arms to defend my freedom. I would be ready to go.

Instead all I see in office is a tweeting narcissistic blowhard who can't seem to wrap his mind around the idea that he is supposed to represent the American people in a way that isn't all about him and show some respect in public discourse who is finding out that being president doesn't mean you get to do what you want. I would say Donald Trump is well-controlled and the Constitution is working as intended. For all the lack of historical knowledge being shown by yourself, Hawktawk, and others, Trump is not the most corrupt or terrible president in history, just the biggest narcissistic loudmouth. His crimes are mostly petty and pathetic in nature, nothing on the level of starting illegal wars, murdering tons of people, or the like. We've had some real cruel presidents who were much better at talking and manipulating the government than Trump in our history.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's why they should have been able to vote secretly. Its NOT LEGISLATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. its guilty or innocent.It should not have been a political process at all. Its law and order.This president is the most corrupt in history, like federal penitentiary crooked.Were he not preident he might already be there along with Jarred, donnie JR, eric and svetlana

I5 asked if the founders saw this coming and I say obviously they screwed the pooch.When Jeff Flake, a man of integrity says 35 Republicans would vote to convict in a secret ballot clearly there should be one. Founders Fd up....

As you say there is no adverse consequence for impeachment, none. Not even removal from office. It took 250 years and 3 impeachments for a single moral integrity infused Senator and 2012 presidential candidate to vote against his own party. The process is a joke other than dinging up a president's approval rating a bit. I think it's ridiculous we can have a straight up criminal, a traitor to america over and over, mentally unstable enough to generate talk of the 25th amendment among members of his cabinet almost immediately. A president now so lawless and unfettered that his corrupt AG is settling scores, pressuring prosecutors to drop charges etc, deconstruct his treasonous acts with russia using riots and a pandemic as cover..

They are threatening people for telling the truth https://www.the-sun.com/news/987380/tru ... em/.Bolton apparently has the goods on impeachment type behavior in dealings with many countries. I guess trump's own Niece who is 55 is writing a searing book about his bizarre behavior,What a danger he is to the world, a total takedown. I suppose he will sue her.

My point is it was a dreadful failing by the founders to bestow so much power on a president and put members of his own party in charge of determining his fate. Way too much reliance on human goodness and honesty/character. I'm sick of hearing we can vote him out in November. He should have been out 2 weeks into his term. And only a rube has any faith in our integrity of our elections. Trump was likely installed by Vlad Putin in a razor electoral victory, cheated with Ukraine to help him in 2020 , is trying to defund the postal service to force people to choose health or voting as he knows his army of trumanzees will be packing their AKs to the polls.Hes forcing people planning to attend his superspreader trumptard rallies to sign a waiver promising not to sue if they get covid. You cant make this up. He doesn't care how many die after the election. He could steal this election with his utter sowing of chaos.

Asea thinks trumpanzees like ID hawkman will stand up to this guy if he takes too much power like he has for years already The military should turn their guns on trump, tell him time is up and save the people the trouble. Yes i mean it. I've never had less faith in my country, in my government, in 40% of americans give or take that support this madness. What's been undone can not be made whole again.

Now you're defending Bolton a known scumbag and warhawk? C'mon now. Bolton is just bitter Trump didn't listen to him. He'd be continuing to follow Trump like a Trumpbot if Trump didn't eject him. Many of Trump's critics are just as bad as him. I don't trust any of these Trump Throwaways that turned on him because they didn't get their way. They were supporting him just fine until he fired them, then they turn on him like petty and pathetic sycophants tossed out like garbage.

Just elect him out in November. He'll leave office. And it seems like even Lindsey Graham has given his permission behind the scenes to attack Trump. I'm betting the vast majority of Republicans will secretly vote for Biden just to get rid of Trump. They gotta be tired of the blowhard.

[RiverDog]

I prefer vote by mail. Voting should be easy to do. I would rather have a test proving you know what you're voting on than to have actual voting a pain in the ass. For someone like who me who works odd shifts and sleeps at odd hours, I'd need the polls open at those hours to vote. If they had 24 hour open polls, then I'd be more ok with it. I'm still very ok with mail in voting. People that vote like to do so. Those that don't care won't even register to vote. I don't like starting conspiracies assuming voting will be hacked in any substantial way. There has been little to no proof that vote hacking or misused mail in ballots have affected any election in a substantial way.

I certainly don't want to make it difficult to cast a vote, just that it should require a modest amount of effort, like putting down the TV remote. I also have some security concerns with vote by mail, but not the same kind that Trump is trying to manufacture. My concern is that it's too easy for one person, say a head of a household, casting 3 or 4 votes by collecting everyone's ballots and marking them with their own choices.

And I agree with there being some sort of competency test to qualify, but any such system would have to be part of a Constitutional amendment. One of the downsides of a democracy is that your subject to the will of the ignorant masses.

Even the supposed Russia hacking that was investigated involved foreign use of social media. From what I read of how Russia and other foreign nations used social media, it was more a matter that the people were from a foreign nation than what they did. There are plenty of Americans spreading lies on social media too without the help of foreign nations. No way to stop Americans from believing in stupid things.

So vote by mail and an eventual electronic voting system is a good, intelligent use of technology to encourage more Americans to be involved in politics using modern systems.

I could handle some sort of electronic system to tabulate and report on voting results, but the actual vote should be more secure. I like the idea of a mechanical voting machine that can't be reset until multiple keys are turned simultaneously, sort of like the fail safe missile launching system of the cold war era. As North Hawk mentioned, there needs to be a permanent record kept that isn't subject to hacking or honest mistakes like power failures.

[RiverDog]

Now you're (Hawktalk) defending Bolton a known scumbag and warhawk? C'mon now. Bolton is just bitter Trump didn't listen to him. He'd be continuing to follow Trump like a Trumpbot if Trump didn't eject him. Many of Trump's critics are just as bad as him. I don't trust any of these Trump Throwaways that turned on him because they didn't get their way. They were supporting him just fine until he fired them, then they turn on him like petty and pathetic sycophants tossed out like garbage.

If Bolton were the only person that had turned on Trump, I would agree with you. But the problem is that there are multiple associates from Trump's inner circle who didn't get fired, like former Defense Secretary Mattis, that have said essentially the same thing.

Just elect him out in November. He'll leave office. And it seems like even Lindsey Graham has given his permission behind the scenes to attack Trump. I'm betting the vast majority of Republicans will secretly vote for Biden just to get rid of Trump. They gotta be tired of the blowhard.

Vast majority? Not a chance! What the Republicans fear most is that if Biden wins in a landslide, it will take out a number of Republican Senators and they lose their majority in the Senate. To that end, most of them will support Trump.

But I do agree that many in the R establishment are getting weary of Trump. I couldn't believe it when he said that he wants to "slow down testing for COVID".

[c_hawkbob]

I certainly don't want to make it difficult to cast a vote, just that it should require a modest amount of effort, like putting down the TV remote.

Why? Seriously. In an age when we can scan a check and have the money in our accounts immediately there is no good reason whatsoever to have casting a vote be any more difficult.

[RiverDog]

I certainly don't want to make it difficult to cast a vote, just that it should require a modest amount of effort, like putting down the TV remote.

Why? Seriously. In an age when we can scan a check and have the money in our accounts immediately there is no good reason whatsoever to have casting a vote be any more difficult.

It's a little difficult for me to articulate. There's something genuine about a person presenting themselves to an authority and deeming themselves as ready to exercise their right to cast a vote. Casting it by proxy compromises the authenticity of a vote and gives it an anonymous Star Chamber sort of feel. Somehow voting in person gives one an appreciation for the struggle so many had to endure to obtain that right.

I used to work with a person that insisted on paying his monthly bills in person and in cash because he liked the satisfaction of putting money in a debtor's hand and squaring up. It's sort of like paying or collecting a beer bet in person, of which I still owe you!

[Aseahawkfan]

If Bolton were the only person that had turned on Trump, I would agree with you. But the problem is that there are multiple associates from Trump's inner circle who didn't get fired, like former Defense Secretary Mattis, that have said essentially the same thing.

Read up on Bolton. He's a jackass. Just another ex-Trump sycophant trying to make money off the association.

Mattis was mostly quiet until Trump involved the military. Mattis wasn't going to sit by and watch the military smeared by Trump. That makes sense. Mattis isn't trying to make money off Trump like Bolton.

Mattis isn't letting himself get used by the left like he's the next Omarosa. John Bolton is a jackass. I still believe George Conway is doing what he is doing to support Trump and keep the anti-Trump hate flowing to antagonize Trump followers. He could be at odds with his wife. But to me it George Conway seems like a coordinated plan by him and his wife to fuel absurd hatred towards Trump that turns moderates away from the Democrats and Trump haters. We shall see. I just know I don't trust Kelly Anne and George Conway.

It's a sad state of affairs when you can't trust your government or the people trying to run it. It's a damn shame.

[RiverDog]

If Bolton were the only person that had turned on Trump, I would agree with you. But the problem is that there are multiple associates from Trump's inner circle who didn't get fired, like former Defense Secretary Mattis, that have said essentially the same thing.

Read up on Bolton. He's a jackass. Just another ex-Trump sycophant trying to make money off the association.

Mattis was mostly quiet until Trump involved the military. Mattis wasn't going to sit by and watch the military smeared by Trump. That makes sense. Mattis isn't trying to make money off Trump like Bolton.

Mattis isn't letting himself get used by the left like he's the next Omarosa. John Bolton is a jackass. I still believe George Conway is doing what he is doing to support Trump and keep the anti-Trump hate flowing to antagonize Trump followers. He could be at odds with his wife. But to me it George Conway seems like a coordinated plan by him and his wife to fuel absurd hatred towards Trump that turns moderates away from the Democrats and Trump haters. We shall see. I just know I don't trust Kelly Anne and George Conway.

It's a sad state of affairs when you can't trust your government or the people trying to run it. It's a damn shame.

I hear ya on Bolton, and if it were any other Administration, he'd be considered an anomaly, a butt hurt renegade selling his kiss-and-tell story. But there's so many that I can't list them all, nearly all of whom were once Trump supporters and/or his own appointees. There's former Chief of Staff John Kelly, who characterized the White House as "a miserable place to work." There's former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, who reportedly called Trump a "moron". And who can forget Jeff Sessions, the Trump loyalist that was one of the first establishment Republicans to support him and recently told him to "butt out" of his Senate race to reclaim the seat he gave up to serve as Trump's AG and told Trump that he was "damn lucky" that he recused himself in the Mueller Investigation. Then there's those that resigned but bit their tongues, like Rick Perry, Nikki Haley, and Dan Coats. This Administration has been in constant turmoil since Day 1.

[Hawktawk]

Now you're defending Bolton a known scumbag and warhawk? C'mon now. Bolton is just bitter Trump didn't listen to him. He'd be continuing to follow Trump like a Trumpbot if Trump didn't eject him. Many of Trump's critics are just as bad as him. I don't trust any of these Trump Throwaways that turned on him because they didn't get their way. They were supporting him just fine until he fired them, then they turn on him like petty and pathetic sycophants tossed out like garbage.

Just elect him out in November. He'll leave office. And it seems like even Lindsey Graham has given his permission behind the scenes to attack Trump. I'm betting the vast majority of Republicans will secretly vote for Biden just to get rid of Trump. They gotta be tired of the blowhard.

Boltons a scumbag. But hes a mentally sane scumbag. He's a scumbag that's telling the truth and making some $ in the process.His testimony which he refused to offer without a legal ruling to the congress wouldnt have changed anything in the impeachment. But i've never been a fan. He's played it both ways. Hes one of many highly placed republicans that bit their tongue and looked the other way if the ends was going to justify the means whatever it was, or perhaps stuck around to try to keep the country safer with a madman at the controls.

In the case of Bolton we'd be in a shooting war with Iran if he had his way along with some still in the administration . He's a scumbag and a wingnut.

But your a bit over the top painting guys like John Kelley and Jim Mattis in particular with the same brush and both men have unloaded both barrels as well, unprecedented in modern political history as former administration officials at the very top of a first term presidency.Then there is the lincoln project. Add in Rex Tillerson, a retired CEO in his mid 70s who divested of 170 million in stock and gave up playing with his grandkids to serve this president who was fired and called "dumb as a box of rocks" by perhaps the dumbest imbecile i've ever heard open their yap..All have raised their voices.Oh and BTW the Trump team has sued his niece to block publication of her tell all just as I predicted

Asea unless it's all mail in ballots i have no faith in the elections although I believe in a fair election trump would get crushed. I just dont believe in them . Beyond that when the president continues to insist on holding indoor rallies in states spiking the hardest,advocating shutting down testing, demonstrating he's an absolute danger to the entire world we may not be functional by November. EU is reportedly considering banning of entry by AMERICANS citing "Coronavirus failures".Buddy.....MAGA?

I think we need 25th amendment NOW or military intervention and not on the streets against citizens either.

[Hawktawk]

I still believe George Conway is doing what he is doing to support Trump and keep the anti-Trump hate flowing to antagonize Trump followers. He could be at odds with his wife. But to me it George Conway seems like a coordinated plan by him and his wife to fuel absurd hatred towards Trump that turns moderates away from the Democrats and Trump haters. We shall see. I just know I don't trust Kelly Anne and George Conway.

It's a sad state of affairs when you can't trust your government or the people trying to run it. It's a damn shame.

Really? No I dont trust kellyanne at all. If you think Bolton is sleaze wow look at her in action. Dumb as a post too just like her boss. PFFFT let a little out honey


But George Conway is a great american, as virulent and early in his hatred for Trump and as spot on about the consequences as ol HT who is looking smarter by the minute. The lincoln project is receiving funds from yours truly. I love what Steve Schmidt had to say yesterday and i'll try to link it. There is no republican party. It's the trump party and it needs to be vaccinated away. It's a malignancy on america, forget the presidency.

[Hawktawk]

Love the Lincoln Project https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... confession

[c_hawkbob]

yes Bolton is a greedy, cowardly worm that withheld evidence during the impeachment trial in order to have greater impact to sell his book, but greedy cowardly worms are what Trump surrounds himself with, they are the one's gonna have the dirt on him. The information, as long as it is independently verifiable, is still valid.

[Aseahawkfan]

I hear ya on Bolton, and if it were any other Administration, he'd be considered an anomaly, a butt hurt renegade selling his kiss-and-tell story. But there's so many that I can't list them all, nearly all of whom were once Trump supporters and/or his own appointees. There's former Chief of Staff John Kelly, who characterized the White House as "a miserable place to work." There's former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, who reportedly called Trump a "moron". And who can forget Jeff Sessions, the Trump loyalist that was one of the first establishment Republicans to support him and recently told him to "butt out" of his Senate race to reclaim the seat he gave up to serve as Trump's AG and told Trump that he was "damn lucky" that he recused himself in the Mueller Investigation. Then there's those that resigned but bit their tongues, like Rick Perry, Nikki Haley, and Dan Coats. This Administration has been in constant turmoil since Day 1.

I have no doubt the White House is a miserable place to work. One of the main reasons I didn't vote for Trump is his narcissistic and controlling attitude. Knew about it before he took office. The guy is all about Trump. If you don't agree with him, then you're out. He'd turn on his own family if they questioned him. He can't get along with other powerful people that won't bow to him. He can go screw himself.

I wish the Democrats weren't so terrible, then I could vote for them and feel better. This situation in America right now is terrible. The mismanagement of our nation is so bad that I can't recall worse in our history fiscally. I can't even blame it all on Trump.The financial mismanagement is coming from The Fed and Congress, who are borrowing like crazy without any end in sight heading us towards bankruptcy.

This kowtowing to mobs like we're seeing all over is terrible. I support some changes, but these mobs are pushing these pathetic politicians to a stupid level.

We have stupid on the left and stupid on the right with no end in sight. How did our leadership become this terrible.

[RiverDog]

I have no doubt the White House is a miserable place to work. One of the main reasons I didn't vote for Trump is his narcissistic and controlling attitude. Knew about it before he took office. The guy is all about Trump. If you don't agree with him, then you're out. He'd turn on his own family if they questioned him. He can't get along with other powerful people that won't bow to him. He can go screw himself.

I wish the Democrats weren't so terrible, then I could vote for them and feel better. This situation in America right now is terrible. The mismanagement of our nation is so bad that I can't recall worse in our history fiscally. I can't even blame it all on Trump.The financial mismanagement is coming from The Fed and Congress, who are borrowing like crazy without any end in sight heading us towards bankruptcy.

This kowtowing to mobs like we're seeing all over is terrible. I support some changes, but these mobs are pushing these pathetic politicians to a stupid level.

We have stupid on the left and stupid on the right with no end in sight. How did our leadership become this terrible.

Agreed. I don't know WTF the City of Seattle is thinking in abandoning a police precinct and allowing this CHAZ movement to occupy a section of the city even as a deadly shooting occurred. That's one of the rare instances where I agree with Trump. It's setting an awful precedent for the next time we have a large scale riot occur. Those looney tunes in the Seattle government are every bit as bad as Trump.

All they need to do is cut off utility service to that area and wait them out. No place to charge their cell phones, no water to flush the toilets.

[Aseahawkfan]

Agreed. I don't know WTF the City of Seattle is thinking in abandoning a police precinct and allowing this CHAZ movement to occupy a section of the city even as a deadly shooting occurred. That's one of the rare instances where I agree with Trump. It's setting an awful precedent for the next time we have a large scale riot occur. Those looney tunes in the Seattle government are every bit as bad as Trump.

All they need to do is cut off utility service to that area and wait them out. No place to charge their cell phones, no water to flush the toilets.

I hope the businesses suing for abandonment of duty and lack of response to the area win a big old lawsuit. The Mayor and Governor were derelict in their duties to the business owners and people in that area. They allowed a mob to hold a portion of a city in their state hostage. That should be a crime punishable by removal from office in a state and city. It is dereliction of duty. I'm surprised it's not a crime on book.

[RiverDog]

Agreed. I don't know WTF the City of Seattle is thinking in abandoning a police precinct and allowing this CHAZ movement to occupy a section of the city even as a deadly shooting occurred. That's one of the rare instances where I agree with Trump. It's setting an awful precedent for the next time we have a large scale riot occur. Those looney tunes in the Seattle government are every bit as bad as Trump.

All they need to do is cut off utility service to that area and wait them out. No place to charge their cell phones, no water to flush the toilets.

I hope the businesses suing for abandonment of duty and lack of response to the area win a big old lawsuit. The Mayor and Governor were derelict in their duties to the business owners and people in that area. They allowed a mob to hold a portion of a city in their state hostage. That should be a crime punishable by removal from office in a state and city. It is dereliction of duty. I'm surprised it's not a crime on book.

Seattle is a frigging abortion. Up until the turn of this century, I used to love to visit Seattle, particularly in the summer. I'd meet up with a bunch of my old college buddies and we'd stay at a downtown hotel and take in a couple of Mariner games, sit at an open air bar on the waterfront and watch the ferries come and go, etc. But 20 years of very liberal government has ruined the city. They lost the Sonics, the waterfront and downtown areas got over run by homeless and panhandlers, the smell of urine and sight of used needles dominate the senses. Except for the precedent it's going to set for future protests in other cities and the damage it's doing to small businesses and innocent civilians, I couldn't give a rip what they do about that situation. They can stew in their own sauce.