Refusing To Wear A Mask: What Does It Say About Us?

[RiverDog]

I came across an interesting article that I'd like to share. As a rule, I'm a bit skeptical of some of these shrinks and their theories, but this one seems to have hit the nail on the head as it sure describes a number of those people that I know that object to such a simple, inconsequential, and modest inconvenience as wearing a mask for the 30-60 minutes we're in a store or other indoor public place.

Psychopathic traits linked to non-compliance with social distancing guidelines amid the coronavirus pandemic

New research provides some initial evidence that certain antagonistic personality traits are associated with ignoring preventative measures meant to halt the spread of the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2.

Blagov found that lower levels of agreeableness and conscientiousness were associated with a reduced likelihood of endorsing health recommendations related to social distancing and hygiene. In other words, people who were less sympathetic/cooperative and people who were less responsible/organized were less likely to engage in preventative measures.

In addition, people who scored higher on the psychopathic subtraits of meanness and disinhibition tended to show less interest in social distancing and hygiene. Meanness and disinhibition also predicted the endorsement of behavior that puts others at risk of infection, such as touching or sneezing on high-use surfaces in public. Disinhibition reflects poor impulse control, while meanness describes the lack of regard for others.

“One potential implication from this research is that there may be a minority of people with particular personality styles (on the narcissism and psychopathy spectrum) that have a disproportionate impact on the pandemic by failing to protect themselves and others.”

https://www.psypost.org/2020/06/psychop ... HQ2CJSvLZc

[c_hawkbob]

I think refusing to wear a mask when asked or reqired to makes you an a-hole, but I don't think that applies (at least no to anywhere near the same degree) as choosing not to when it is optional. The latter could just be a matter of being uninformed or having put your faith in the wrong sources.

For myself if I can't maintain distance I've got a mask on (actally a couple*), for your sake not mine. If I go to the store and feel as though someone unmasked put me at any risk at all I carry wipes and will wipe my hands, face and surfaces of my shopping bags real quick. Until there is a vaccine I choose to err on the side of not getting sick and carrying it home to those I care about.

*

[RiverDog]

I think refusing to wear a mask when asked or reqired to makes you an a-hole, but I don't think that applies (at least no to anywhere near the same degree) as choosing not to when it is optional. The latter could just be a matter of being uninformed or having put your faith in the wrong sources.

At this point, it is almost impossible for anyone to be uniformed about social distancing recommendations. Even the illiterate and mentally challenged individuals are aware of such advice. But I do acknowledge your point about having faith in the wrong sources is likely one explanation for some people's defiance. But what's more likely is that they are being selective in believing those sources that tell them what they want to hear and give them an excuse for not wearing a mask.

For myself if I can't maintain distance I've got a mask on (actally a couple*), for your sake not mine. If I go to the store and feel as though someone unmasked put me at any risk at all I carry wipes and will wipe my hands, face and surfaces of my shopping bags real quick. Until there is a vaccine I choose to err on the side of not getting sick and carrying it home to those I care about.

Actually I'm about 99.5% sure that I don't have COVID so my not wearing a mask would most likely be inconsequential, but other people don't know that, so in order to allay them of any anxiety they may have if I were not wearing one, I put it on. I also like the idea of showing others that I care and am willing to do my part to help fight the spread of the disease and get our economy back on its feet.

[Aseahawkfan]

Americans were raised to flout the government. We were founded on saying "FU" to the government. If you trust your government, you're a fool as far as I'm concerned. Americans in general hate being told what to do. Americans are literally known around the world by their lack of ability to conform wherever they go. Unless a psychologist is taking into account American culture, the analysis won't be great.

Americans love their country and believe in their rights, Americans do not love their government and hate being told what to do by their government. The main complaint about the Affordable Care Act is that it was a government mandate. The main reason people fight the mask mandates is because it is the government telling them what to do. They hate it.

I expect Americans to resist any government mandate even if it's scientifically backed and good for their health, wealth, or what not. It's an American cultural trait to resist the government and any perceived tyranny, even if it is saving their lives.

[RiverDog]

My buddy whom I often refer to has refused to wear a seat belt for no other reason than the government tells us to do it and it's none of their damn business. While I agree that it's an interference in our lives that hurts no one else but ourselves, it's a common sense safety measure with only a mild sacrifice of convenience, so I wear it.

A cloth mask is a stupid hill to die on if one is hell bent to defy the government. It has too much of a "rebels without a cause" appearance. There's much better subjects to expend your ammo on, like the 2nd ammendment abortion even school prayer. Refusing to wear a mask seems very silly in comparison to other challenges to our freedom. . It's too simple and requires too little sacrifice of our liberties and too obviously beneficial for the rest of society for such a defiance to resonate with others. Because of the fact that not wearing one doesn't put the individual's health in jeopardy yet places others at risk, rather than a gallant crusader willing to die for a cause, it makes them look like a selfish A-hole.

[NorthHawk]

I heard a guy on TV who was quickly interviewed and he said (paraphrase) My father trudged through Europe to keep us safe, my uncle
fought in Korea, my brother was in Vietnam, all to protect us here at home, and some people can't wear a G**Dam* mask? It really put
the sacrifice of past generations into perspective as well as the selfishness of us today.

[Aseahawkfan]

My buddy whom I often refer to has refused to wear a seat belt for no other reason than the government tells us to do it and it's none of their damn business. While I agree that it's an interference in our lives that hurts no one else but ourselves, it's a common sense safety measure with only a mild sacrifice of convenience, so I wear it.

A cloth mask is a stupid hill to die on if one is hell bent to defy the government. It has too much of a "rebels without a cause" appearance. There's much better subjects to expend your ammo on, like the 2nd ammendment abortion even school prayer. Refusing to wear a mask seems very silly in comparison to other challenges to our freedom. . It's too simple and requires too little sacrifice of our liberties and too obviously beneficial for the rest of society for such a defiance to resonate with others. Because of the fact that not wearing one doesn't put the individual's health in jeopardy yet places others at risk, rather than a gallant crusader willing to die for a cause, it makes them look like a selfish A-hole.

If Americans, and people in general, weren't stupid like this, we would have a very boring history, though our lives would be very easy. Can you imagine humans acting in an agreeable way that helps each other after talking it over and having clear support for the behavior? That's a Vulcan-like world, not human.

Humans history is filled with dumb. That's why this assertion of behavior concerning Americans is BS. The world is like this. That's why we have so much stupid in the world. Maybe Asian cultures and some European cultures are the most likely to be agreeable and even they have their problems.

Humans are a funny group. I think it comes down to how long can you take this corona environment. These indefinite mandates with no jobs or money coming in are just going to keep pushing people to the edge and over. People can only stomach this kind of environment to save less than 1/10 of a percent of the population will only last so long. Even now we're seeing the consequences of lock downs and government mandates aimed at saving every single possible person at the expense of the many. At this point these mandates are saving a small portion of the population compared to the vast majority. We have sufficient information at this point to know the death rate for COVID is very, very, very low, well under 1%. It's no longer an unknown percentage, it's a clearly known low mortality rate. And they're expecting everyone to sacrifice for a very small group of vulnerable people with outliers.

[Hawktawk]

I've worn my mask indoors or in crowded areas for months. Nobody else in the world has politicised this anywhere near as much as america. And its come from our *leader* We are too selfish, greedy and stupid to survive. Seeing Trump sinking like a stone and seeing polls showing americans are increasingly taking this seriously is a promising sign but I dread what we might see in the next month due to the utter lack of safe procedures around this country.

[Aseahawkfan]

I've worn my mask indoors or in crowded areas for months. Nobody else in the world has politicised this anywhere near as much as america. And its come from our *leader* We are too selfish, greedy and stupid to survive. Seeing Trump sinking like a stone and seeing polls showing americans are increasingly taking this seriously is a promising sign but I dread what we might see in the next month due to the utter lack of safe procedures around this country.

You won't see much. We already have clear evidence of what the corona virus does to people in environments that don't social distance or wear masks. It's still well below a 1% death rate, less than 1/10 of of 1%. It's why people are getting careless, not just here, but all over. We're not the only nation having problems getting people to wear masks.

This isn't new territory any more. We have nations like Sweden who didn't lock down and still have less than 1/10 of 1% death rate or lower. We have Brasil who also has less than 1/10th of 1%. Even in America we're well under 1/10th of 1% and ample evidence is it spread heavily in New York and other East Coast places before we locked down.

The death rate is extremely low. We have massive asymptomatic spreading going. Hospital systems are not getting overloaded because this virus is different than they thought it was. It is making people careless.

I still wear a mask in public.I think people should. It's more to protect the vulnerable than any concern that this is the devastating virus it was thought to be at the start of this. I wear it more because I don't want to be the one killing someone's mom or relative by carelessness. There are too many people that don't give a crap like our dumb as dirt president. I have one friend who lost an older uncle. And another friend who lost his mom. That is terrible. Both likely got it from a younger, asymptomatic relative likely not wearing a mask. But who knows, maybe they were wearing a mask and still go it. The asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic spread is what makes this virus so terrible.

If it hit hard and killed a lot of people even Dumb as Dirt would be wearing a mask and people would be too afraid to go out without one. But this mostly mild and asymptomatic spreading is just making this feel not worth it to a ton of people and they are getting careless.

[RiverDog]

You won't see much. We already have clear evidence of what the corona virus does to people in environments that don't social distance or wear masks. It's still well below a 1% death rate, less than 1/10 of of 1%. It's why people are getting careless, not just here, but all over. We're not the only nation having problems getting people to wear masks.

I just got back from visiting my brother-in-law at a private campground in Gold Bar east of Monroe. People are much better at wearing masks than they are here in the Tri Cities even though we have a much worse COVID problem with hospital ICU nearing capacity and infections climbing disproportionally to increased testing. The Tri Cities estimate of mask compliance in grocery stores is 53% even though it's been mandatory for over a week. Virtually everyone was wearing masks in Snohomish County stores. Along with Yakima County, which is the worst county on the west coast, our two county area, ie Benton/Franklin Counties, are the only 3 counties still in Phase 1. Just a drive through my neighborhood here, with all the Trump yard signs and flags compared to neighborhoods on the west side, shows that we have a lot more Trump supporters than they do on the west side. Compliance is most definitely related to one's political philosophy.

This isn't new territory any more. We have nations like Sweden who didn't lock down and still have less than 1/10 of 1% death rate or lower. We have Brasil who also has less than 1/10th of 1%. Even in America we're well under 1/10th of 1% and ample evidence is it spread heavily in New York and other East Coast places before we locked down.

The death rate is extremely low. We have massive asymptomatic spreading going. Hospital systems are not getting overloaded because this virus is different than they thought it was. It is making people careless.

There is no one stat related to COVID that is tell-all. Death rates vary depending on a whole bunch of factors, how robust testing is, age of population, etc. The one I look at is hospital admissions and ICU usage. There are seven states that have reported record COVID admissions: AZ, AK, NC, SC, TN, and TX. Hospitals in AZ, CA, FL, and TX are reporting near capacity ICU units. That kind of usage puts at risk all uses of ICU's. If there's a serious accident involving multiple injuries requiring ICU's, they'll be having to shuffle victims to other hospitals. Here locally, Yakima has had to start transferring ICU patients to other hospitals. 30% of Tri Cities hospital patients are COVID, a stat that's been on a steady rise for weeks. Spokane is showing an increase in COVID cases. But even those stats doesn't give an idea as to whether or not the virus is under control as there can be a two week lag time between infection and the onset of symptoms.

I still wear a mask in public.I think people should. It's more to protect the vulnerable than any concern that this is the devastating virus it was thought to be at the start of this. I wear it more because I don't want to be the one killing someone's mom or relative by carelessness. There are too many people that don't give a crap like our dumb as dirt president. I have one friend who lost an older uncle. And another friend who lost his mom. That is terrible. Both likely got it from a younger, asymptomatic relative likely not wearing a mask. But who knows, maybe they were wearing a mask and still go it. The asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic spread is what makes this virus so terrible.

If it hit hard and killed a lot of people even Dumb as Dirt would be wearing a mask and people would be too afraid to go out without one. But this mostly mild and asymptomatic spreading is just making this feel not worth it to a ton of people and they are getting careless.

Trump's behavior is making this pandemic worse. If he got behind the CDC recommendations there would be a heck of a lot more compliance. The government is not speaking with one voice and is sending mixed signals. Trump has politicalized the issue of wearing masks, making claims like people wear them because they don't like him. This COVID pandemic is going to be the defining event of his presidency and so far, he's failed miserably. Only 30% of the population trusts him to get the facts straight and just 37% approve of how he's handled the crisis.

[Aseahawkfan]

I just got back from visiting my brother-in-law at a private campground in Gold Bar east of Monroe. People are much better at wearing masks than they are here in the Tri Cities even though we have a much worse COVID problem with hospital ICU nearing capacity and infections climbing disproportionally to increased testing. The Tri Cities estimate of mask compliance in grocery stores is 53% even though it's been mandatory for over a week. Virtually everyone was wearing masks in Snohomish County stores. Along with Yakima County, which is the worst county on the west coast, our two county area, ie Benton/Franklin Counties, are the only 3 counties still in Phase 1. Just a drive through my neighborhood here, with all the Trump yard signs and flags compared to neighborhoods on the west side, shows that we have a lot more Trump supporters than they do on the west side. Compliance is most definitely related to one's political philosophy.

I'm sure some is related to political philosophy. Some people don't like wearing them. I'm in Seattle, Democrat-Leftists Central. Plenty of people here not wearing masks. Some people just don't care. I wander in grocery stores and stores here, lots of people not wearing masks. I live in Snohomish County. If people are wearing masks in grocery stores, it's because they're not being allowed in without them. On the streets and such, it's a mixed bag. Maybe your businesses there aren't enforcing things like here.

There is no one stat related to COVID that is tell-all. Death rates vary depending on a whole bunch of factors, how robust testing is, age of population, etc. The one I look at is hospital admissions and ICU usage. There are seven states that have reported record COVID admissions: AZ, AK, NC, SC, TN, and TX. Hospitals in AZ, CA, FL, and TX are reporting near capacity ICU units. That kind of usage puts at risk all uses of ICU's. If there's a serious accident involving multiple injuries requiring ICU's, they'll be having to shuffle victims to other hospitals. Here locally, Yakima has had to start transferring ICU patients to other hospitals. 30% of Tri Cities hospital patients are COVID, a stat that's been on a steady rise for weeks. Spokane is showing an increase in COVID cases. But even those stats doesn't give an idea as to whether or not the virus is under control as there can be a two week lag time between infection and the onset of symptoms.

We already have clear evidence of what happens in areas where this is allowed to spread indiscriminately. Nowhere is it over-hwhelming. Sorry, the evidence is clear. The death rate is far less than 1%. Even in New York where they got hit the hardest, it was far less than 1/10 of 1%.

You want to post articles were ICU units are near capacity in Texas? I haven't heard this at all and my people are in Texas. So I'd like if these are speculative articles or actual stats. Fear-mongering and "What if's don't mean much.

Information is sufficient to judge the risk of the disease. And it has not overwhelmed anywhere save perhaps a few small places with a surprise cluster.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/texas-medical-center-changes-online-icu-occupancy-presentation/285-96e305b6-3d13-40a3-951e-3561e9eb84a9

A lot of media manipulation and fear-mongering going on. No matter how you want to spin it, the Democrats and liberal media are going to do absolutely anything they can to take out the Republicans this time around. The left has control of the majority of the media in this nation. They will attack wherever they can using this virus. I'd be real careful about buying into it.

Read the numbers and do the percentages yourself. They are more accurate than stories fear-mongering up the situation.

[RiverDog]

You want to post articles were ICU units are near capacity in Texas? I haven't heard this at all and my people are in Texas. So I'd like if these are speculative articles or actual stats. Fear-mongering and "What if's don't mean much.

Seems like there's some mixed signals being sent to Texans:

Despite reaching surge capacity, four hospital CEOs said Thursday there's no cause for "unwarranted alarm."

Those same CEOs signed a letter to Houstonians Wednesday warning, "If this trend continues, our hospital system capacity will become overwhelmed."

The concern from Texas Medical Center leaders is that the current rate of people getting sick with COVID-19 and going to the hospital would become unsustainable if it persists.

Thursday morning, Gov. Greg Abbott issued an Executive Order to ensure hospital bed availability for COVID-19 patients as the number of cases increase at an alarming rate.

The governor’s order suspends elective surgeries at hospitals in Harris, Bexar, Dallas and Travis counties.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/healt ... d36cdf4cf3

But then there's this:

After 100% ICU capacity debacle, Houston hospitals change how they report numbers. Local COVID-19 numbers are trending in the wrong direction. Daily cases, hospitalizations, and the positivity rate are all up. In the midst of that troubling news, Houston made national headlines when the Texas Medical Center’s online dashboard showed intensive care units at 100% capacity.

“We were getting panicked calls from elected officials and members of the media saying, ‘You all are out of ICU beds, what are we going to do?’ No, that’s not right. We were not doing a very good job with our slides and portraying how we manage our capacity,” said Dr. David Callender, President & CEO, Memorial Hermann Hospital. “We want to be very clear. We’re not close to running out of capacity.”

Over the weekend, the heads of Houston’s top hospitals came together to reformat how they present information. The hospitals stopped reporting new COVID-19 information for a couple of days while new infographics were created

However, Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo is concerned the new format is even more confusing.

“The timing is suspect. I find it very, very problematic. I said I’m not on board. We do not need to be misleading people,” Hidalgo said. “This message ultimately weakens our community’s ability to succeed when the message is being diluted, when the numbers, projections, and definitions are being changed halfway through the game, halfway through the battle.”

“We’re four times what we were in May and April, so we’re very concerned. We don’t want this discussion about capacity to lose sight of this virus being highly active in our community,” said McKeon

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... r-BB167O47

They're playing a numbers game down in the Lone Star state, but if they're suspending elective surgeries, I'd say that they have or are anticipating a problem with hospital capacity.

[RiverDog]

You want to post articles were ICU units are near capacity in Texas? I haven't heard this at all and my people are in Texas. So I'd like if these are speculative articles or actual stats. Fear-mongering and "What if's don't mean much.

Another article regarding hospital capacity in Texas:

At Lyndon B. Johnson Hospital on Sunday, the medical staff ran out of both space for new coronavirus patients and a key drug needed to treat them. With no open beds at the public hospital, a dozen COVID-19 patients who were in need of intensive care were stuck in the emergency room, awaiting transfers to other Houston area hospitals, according to a note sent to the staff and shared with reporters.

A day later, the top physician executive at the Houston Methodist hospital system wrote to staff members warning that its coronavirus caseload was surging: “It has become necessary to consider delaying more surgical services to create further capacity for COVID-19 patients,” Dr. Robert Phillips said in the note, an abrupt turn from three days earlier, when the hospital system sent a note to thousands of patients, inviting them to keep their surgical appointments.

And at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, staff members were alerted recently that the hospital would soon begin taking in cancer patients with COVID-19 from the city’s overburdened public hospital system, a highly unusual move for the specialty hospital.

These internal messages highlight the growing strain that the coronavirus crisis is putting on hospital systems in the Houston region, where the number of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 has nearly quadrupled since Memorial Day. As of Tuesday, more than 3,000 people were hospitalized for the coronavirus in the region, including nearly 800 in intensive care.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inter ... d=msedgntp

That ought to put to rest any arguments over the strain that COVID is putting on Texas hospitals.

[Aseahawkfan]

Another article regarding hospital capacity in Texas:

At Lyndon B. Johnson Hospital on Sunday, the medical staff ran out of both space for new coronavirus patients and a key drug needed to treat them. With no open beds at the public hospital, a dozen COVID-19 patients who were in need of intensive care were stuck in the emergency room, awaiting transfers to other Houston area hospitals, according to a note sent to the staff and shared with reporters.

A day later, the top physician executive at the Houston Methodist hospital system wrote to staff members warning that its coronavirus caseload was surging: “It has become necessary to consider delaying more surgical services to create further capacity for COVID-19 patients,” Dr. Robert Phillips said in the note, an abrupt turn from three days earlier, when the hospital system sent a note to thousands of patients, inviting them to keep their surgical appointments.

And at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, staff members were alerted recently that the hospital would soon begin taking in cancer patients with COVID-19 from the city’s overburdened public hospital system, a highly unusual move for the specialty hospital.

These internal messages highlight the growing strain that the coronavirus crisis is putting on hospital systems in the Houston region, where the number of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 has nearly quadrupled since Memorial Day. As of Tuesday, more than 3,000 people were hospitalized for the coronavirus in the region, including nearly 800 in intensive care.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inter ... d=msedgntp

That ought to put to rest any arguments over the strain that COVID is putting on Texas hospitals.

Not really. It simply indicates Houston like other big cities are getting more which is expected. It doesn't mean the entire state of Texas is over-loaded. Which is why posting things like "Texas hospitals" leads to bad thinking about the overall state of Texas or any state versus key areas. That is the type of thinking that leads to idiot lock downs state wide versus focusing on the areas having probems.

So let's just say we disagree on how to view things. I don't want more dumb one-sized fits all lock downs and mandates. If any area is having problems, do what you need to do to get that under control. Don't continue to act in an idiotic manner locking everyone down when they have 3 cases in some wide open county where people do not need to be locked down.

We also have to learn to live with COVID, period. As in we need to be operational with COVID in full swing and accept the death count. We can't lock down again for a death rate this low. The hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it, people will have to protect themselves as much as possible, and we have to get to business. For all the partying in the stock market, we are not economically healthy at all. Just because The Fed is printing money like it's free doesn't mean the long-term effect of this is going to be good at all. All those people sitting on cash right now or earning wages or on social security are about to be in for a huge shock when their dollars are devalued and the overall effect of all this is to once again transfer massive wealth from wage earners and cash holders to those able to purchase assets that will increase with the inflation caused by an overabundant money supply.

[Hawktawk]

Not really. It simply indicates Houston like other big cities are getting more which is expected. It doesn't mean the entire state of Texas is over-loaded. Which is why posting things like "Texas hospitals" leads to bad thinking about the overall state of Texas or any state versus key areas. That is the type of thinking that leads to idiot lock downs state wide versus focusing on the areas having probems.

So let's just say we disagree on how to view things. I don't want more dumb one-sized fits all lock downs and mandates. If any area is having problems, do what you need to do to get that under control. Don't continue to act in an idiotic manner locking everyone down when they have 3 cases in some wide open county where people do not need to be locked down.

We also have to learn to live with COVID, period. As in we need to be operational with COVID in full swing and accept the death count. We can't lock down again for a death rate this low. The hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it, people will have to protect themselves as much as possible, and we have to get to business. For all the partying in the stock market, we are not economically healthy at all. Just because The Fed is printing money like it's free doesn't mean the long-term effect of this is going to be good at all. All those people sitting on cash right now or earning wages or on social security are about to be in for a huge shock when their dollars are devalued and the overall effect of all this is to once again transfer massive wealth from wage earners and cash holders to those able to purchase assets that will increase with the inflation caused by an overabundant money supply.

What does refusing to wear a mask say? It says you are selfish and stupid."

the hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it" "if your old afraid shelter and protect yourself"
I'm really sick of hearing this. The hospitals are getting overwhelmed and when that actually happens it's a false choice to say get the economy rolling. Not to mention health care workers forced to deal with a horde of patients get sick at a rate higher than anywhere in the world.Many young healthy medical professionals die due to the sheer amount of aerosol covid in these hospital rooms.

the economy is not rolling. It showed signs of life in may with all the reopenings but now these states are going backwards and they have to shut down, a worse fate than staying closed a bit longer and forcing people to comply in the very beginning . Everyone in the world was in masks immediately when this hit but we didn't have enough masks so the advice was not to wear one for months. Our national stockpile is running out again now too .This is a 2 week lag disease and the numbers are horrific already and still not showing the infections from the 4th of july holiday, numbers are already being fudged to hide the true severity. Reefer trucks are being ordered in AZ and Texas. California AZ Texas and Florida alone lead the entire world in new infections the past few days.

Whats happening in the market is obscene, immoral, the fed spending our great great great grandkids money propping up this market actually buying securities from publicly traded companies like Jack daniels etc. it's a house of cards from hell. Meanwhile fortune 500 companies got bailouts, Trump's businesses and those of his buddies and donors and the little guys are going bankrupt.What does this say about our leaders when small businesses fail and they make the rich much richer as JP morgan had its best ever quarter with unemployment rivalling the great depression? What does sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives worshiping the almighty capitalism where everything except human life is too big to fail say about 40% of americans? their greed, avarice, lack of moral fiber is revolting. America is screwed worse than anyone because we closed too late and not completely, we didn't mandate masks for every american, we opened when none of the states met the WH task forces own guidelines and Americans generally speaking are proven to be stupid, selfish, possessing a false sense of invincibility. The president has been so bad, so indescribably bad. He's been a huge part of the problem and its not a shock its red states blowing up the worst in most instances. Personally, living around about 40% idiots I'm ready to punch the next maskless idiot that crowds me in a store. I dont want to hear these trumpanzees saying F#k Jay inslee when washington closes over whats going on in eastern washington. Wear your masks. Even numb nutz put one on 4 months too late

[Aseahawkfan]

What does refusing to wear a mask say? It says you are selfish and stupid."

the hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it" "if your old afraid shelter and protect yourself"
I'm really sick of hearing this. The hospitals are getting overwhelmed and when that actually happens it's a false choice to say get the economy rolling. Not to mention health care workers forced to deal with a horde of patients get sick at a rate higher than anywhere in the world.Many young healthy medical professionals die due to the sheer amount of aerosol covid in these hospital rooms.

the economy is not rolling. It showed signs of life in may with all the reopenings but now these states are going backwards and they have to shut down, a worse fate than staying closed a bit longer and forcing people to comply in the very beginning . Everyone in the world was in masks immediately when this hit but we didn't have enough masks so the advice was not to wear one for months. Our national stockpile is running out again now too .This is a 2 week lag disease and the numbers are horrific already and still not showing the infections from the 4th of july holiday, numbers are already being fudged to hide the true severity. Reefer trucks are being ordered in AZ and Texas. California AZ Texas and Florida alone lead the entire world in new infections the past few days.

Whats happening in the market is obscene, immoral, the fed spending our great great great grandkids money propping up this market actually buying securities from publicly traded companies like Jack daniels etc. it's a house of cards from hell. Meanwhile fortune 500 companies got bailouts, Trump's businesses and those of his buddies and donors and the little guys are going bankrupt.What does this say about our leaders when small businesses fail and they make the rich much richer as JP morgan had its best ever quarter with unemployment rivalling the great depression? What does sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives worshiping the almighty capitalism where everything except human life is too big to fail say about 40% of americans? their greed, avarice, lack of moral fiber is revolting. America is screwed worse than anyone because we closed too late and not completely, we didn't mandate masks for every american, we opened when none of the states met the WH task forces own guidelines and Americans generally speaking are proven to be stupid, selfish, possessing a false sense of invincibility. The president has been so bad, so indescribably bad. He's been a huge part of the problem and its not a shock its red states blowing up the worst in most instances. Personally, living around about 40% idiots I'm ready to punch the next maskless idiot that crowds me in a store. I dont want to hear these trumpanzees saying F#k Jay inslee when washington closes over whats going on in eastern washington. Wear your masks. Even numb nutz put one on 4 months too late

We'll see. Hospitals are not overwhelmed yet or we would be seeing a far worse death rate. And yeah, a lot of Americans are selfish and stupid. You been knowing this. It's been this way for years. Does this really surprise you that a culture built in revolution and liberty would be like this?

And yep, our debt load has reached insane levels. The stock market keeps on going up absent fundamentals to support almost all based on the juice in the economy that will cause inflation. Someday people will pay, who knows when.

The entire leadership of America has been absolutely terrible whether it is Dumb as Dirt not wearing a mask or taking the virus seriously to Jay "Hypocrite" Inslee and his cohort Mayor "Jenny "Summer of Love" Durkan locking everything down while letting protesters wander in groups higher than 50 protesting, letting people loot, and letting people take over several city blocks instituting their law. We have absolutely terrible leadership right now. The media is terrible as well egging each other on and politicizing everything. It's making this whole situation worse.

I wish we could get rid of all these clowns and soon. The Seattle City Council, Inslee, Durkan, Trump, most of Congress, most of the idiots in the media like Hannity, Tucker, Lemon, and Cooper. Just wash our hands of these idiots and try to find some reasonable folks to run the government and provide news.

[RiverDog]

We'll see. Hospitals are not overwhelmed yet or we would be seeing a far worse death rate.

Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass. Reports from Florida, Texas, and California is that hospitals are getting darn close to capacity, and officials are concerned as the number of new cases continues to grow, a growth rate that can't be explained simply by more testing being done as the POTUS would have us believe. Here's a quote from an article dated yesterday from a Dallas hospital CEO: Stephen Love, president and CEO of the DFW Hospital Council said North Texas hospitals have surge capacity, for now, but the rate at which the virus is spreading in our region was worrisome.

And the problem isn't just with hospital capacity and the death rate. With as many infections that are being reported, it's inevitable that some of those infections are going to be health care providers, and when they get sick and can't come to work, or come to work and give it to their co workers, the crisis is going to get even worse. I'm not running around saying that the sky is falling, but some areas of the country, particularly those 4 in the Sun Belt region, are facing an extremely serious situation that could go very badly.

And yep, our debt load has reached insane levels. The stock market keeps on going up absent fundamentals to support almost all based on the juice in the economy that will cause inflation. Someday people will pay, who knows when.

The entire leadership of America has been absolutely terrible whether it is Dumb as Dirt not wearing a mask or taking the virus seriously to Jay "Hypocrite" Inslee and his cohort Mayor "Jenny "Summer of Love" Durkan locking everything down while letting protesters wander in groups higher than 50 protesting, letting people loot, and letting people take over several city blocks instituting their law. We have absolutely terrible leadership right now. The media is terrible as well egging each other on and politicizing everything. It's making this whole situation worse.

I wish we could get rid of all these clowns and soon. The Seattle City Council, Inslee, Durkan, Trump, most of Congress, most of the idiots in the media like Hannity, Tucker, Lemon, and Cooper. Just wash our hands of these idiots and try to find some reasonable folks to run the government and provide news.

I agree, but I don't see simply getting rid of the bums as a solution. The problem is with the American public. I keep harping back to it, but when 30% of adults are so stupid and ill informed that they can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, what makes you think that they won't wrap their arms around the next slick snake oil salesman that tells them what they want to hear?

[NorthHawk]

The other thing that has to be considered is the impact on the Intensive Care wards and hospital capacity.
If they are full with Covid patients, there might be limited room or resources for those who suffer accidents or
have other illnesses.

[c_hawkbob]

Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass.

Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)

So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.

[RiverDog]

Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass.

Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.

It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)

So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.

Good point.

The only thing that the deaths metric has going for it is that it's an actual number vs. infections, which can vary depending on how many samples are taken, or infection rate, which can vary depending on who's getting tested, anyone including perfectly healthy individuals or only those with symptoms. Deaths are useful in retrospect to see how deadly the disease was, but it's not much use in estimating the spread of the virus.

Hospital admissions and ICU utilization are perhaps the best measures of actual disease spread, but even that has a 2 week lag time from infection and can vary depending on the age of those getting infected. There really is no perfect metric for measuring the spread of the virus, which is one of the problems we've had in dealing with it.

[NorthHawk]

In Asia (I'm thinking it is Taiwan) they have a Health Card and whenever you see a doctor, they swipe it and
record the reason for the visit. This gives them the ability to track in near time the locations and size of
any type of disease or infection. It will happen to all advanced societies at some point, but it might be a
while for those with large land masses and decentralized health care systems.

[c_hawkbob]

In Asia (I'm thinking it is Taiwan) they have a Health Card and whenever you see a doctor, they swipe it and
record the reason for the visit. This gives them the ability to track in near time the locations and size of
any type of disease or infection. It will happen to all advanced societies at some point, but it might be a
while for those with large land masses and decentralized health care systems.

Puts me in mind of the buy-me-drinky girls bar cards in the PI while I was in the Navy ...

[Aseahawkfan]

Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass. Reports from Florida, Texas, and California is that hospitals are getting darn close to capacity, and officials are concerned as the number of new cases continues to grow, a growth rate that can't be explained simply by more testing being done as the POTUS would have us believe. Here's a quote from an article dated yesterday from a Dallas hospital CEO: Stephen Love, president and CEO of the DFW Hospital Council said North Texas hospitals have surge capacity, for now, but the rate at which the virus is spreading in our region was worrisome.

And the problem isn't just with hospital capacity and the death rate. With as many infections that are being reported, it's inevitable that some of those infections are going to be health care providers, and when they get sick and can't come to work, or come to work and give it to their co workers, the crisis is going to get even worse. I'm not running around saying that the sky is falling, but some areas of the country, particularly those 4 in the Sun Belt region, are facing an extremely serious situation that could go very badly.

I've read they are reaching 80% of capacity. Most aren't COVID19 though. It's the combination of COVID19 and other medical issues requiring beds and ICU. From what I read only 30% or so are COVID19. Most aren't on ventilators, just in the hospital for other symptoms and monitoring. We'll see how it rolls.

California is apparently slowing their re-opening. Personally I don't think there is much we can do in a nation this size. It's going to spread. Keeping these lock down in place is making everything absolutely worse. As an example I'm in some of the worst cardio-vascular shape of my life. I likely had a better chance of surviving COVID19 before this lock down. I'm probably not alone. I exercised at the gym weekly. It kept my weight under control, cardio in shape, and muscles in shape. Now I'm in the worst muscular shape in years from this lock down. The government mandated lock downs have probably damaged more people's mental and physical health locking down. I really want to see some death rates at the end of the year from other things.

This lock down is not only physically terrible, but psychologically terrible.

I agree, but I don't see simply getting rid of the bums as a solution. The problem is with the American public. I keep harping back to it, but when 30% of adults are so stupid and ill informed that they can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, what makes you think that they won't wrap their arms around the next slick snake oil salesman that tells them what they want to hear?

We both know what's going to happen. The short-sighted government irresponsible management of money and wealth in this nation which is currently creating an even bigger wealth gap divide with this lock down as working people have enough money to buy things like houses, cars, and the like are going to eventually lead to those with non-essential crap jobs unable to buy cars or use credit with no jobs further pushing us towards socialism and socializing things. Probably part of the reason the Democrats don't care if we lock down, they know they can use this lock down and the wealth gap to further sell their BS ideas. Mark my words they are going to be selling them hard once people see how badly this lock down has increased the wealth gap.

[Aseahawkfan]

Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)

So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.

John Hopkins updates daily. They're not waiting for death certificates. From what I understand they are going by hospital information as in doctor's declared cause of death, which I think is almost immediate given they don't have a lot of time to spend on autopsy or screwing around with it. So the death certificate may take a while to finalize, the doctor's listed cause of death is not. Sites like John Hopkin's COVID19 tracker will update with hospital information on a daily basis. Doctor's often pronounce cause of death in a hospital almost immediately when the person dies. I don't believe there is much of a delay, though someone may dispute cause of death prior to the release of the death certificate. I guarantee hospitals aren't waiting for the death certificate to report the statistic. They take the information the doctor signs off on.

Here are their information sources: https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/blob/master/README.md

Seems even the CDC is not mainly using death certificates. From CDC web site:

"In addition, CDC regularly reports provisional death certificate data on the NCHS website. Reporting the number of deaths by using death certificates ultimately provides more complete information but is a longer process and, therefore, these numbers will be less than the deaths count on the COVID-19 website."

[RiverDog]

Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)

So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.

John Hopkins updates daily. They're not waiting for death certificates. From what I understand they are going by hospital information as in doctor's declared cause of death, which I think is almost immediate given they don't have a lot of time to spend on autopsy or screwing around with it. So the death certificate may take a while to finalize, the doctor's listed cause of death is not. Sites like John Hopkin's COVID19 tracker will update with hospital information on a daily basis. Doctor's often pronounce cause of death in a hospital almost immediately when the person dies. I don't believe there is much of a delay, though someone may dispute cause of death prior to the release of the death certificate. I guarantee hospitals aren't waiting for the death certificate to report the statistic. They take the information the doctor signs off on.

Here are their information sources: https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/blob/master/README.md

Seems even the CDC is not mainly using death certificates. From CDC web site:

"In addition, CDC regularly reports provisional death certificate data on the NCHS website. Reporting the number of deaths by using death certificates ultimately provides more complete information but is a longer process and, therefore, these numbers will be less than the deaths count on the COVID-19 website."

It still doesn't take into account the amount of time between infection and death. As we all know, symptoms can take up to 14 days after infection, and a victim can spend several weeks in the hospital/ICU before they pass. No matter how you look at it, reported deaths is a lagging indicator.

Most experts are looking at total infections and the percent of positive of those tested to forecast hospital/ICU usage, and those indicators don't look good in the 4 states most often mentioned (CA, TX, AZ, and FL). You also have to keep in mind that most of those hospitals have already postponed elective surgeries so the numbers are lower than they would be under normal circumstances. Those 4 states could be in some serious trouble if the rate of admissions exceeds the rate of discharge/death.

[RiverDog]

I just heard on NBC that 56 Florida hospitals have no more ICU units available.

[Aseahawkfan]

I just heard on NBC that 56 Florida hospitals have no more ICU units available.

How many hospitals does Florida have?

Looks like Dumb as Dirt may have to step up again to do something. If Dumb as Dirt wants to win Florida, he better step up big to help them. That state is absolutely essential to his re-election. Maybe that will motivate him.

[Aseahawkfan]

it still doesn't take into account the amount of time between infection and death. As we all know, symptoms can take up to 14 days after infection, and a victim can spend several weeks in the hospital/ICU before they pass. No matter how you look at it, reported deaths is a lagging indicator.

Most experts are looking at total infections and the percent of positive of those tested to forecast hospital/ICU usage, and those indicators don't look good in the 4 states most often mentioned (CA, TX, AZ, and FL). You also have to keep in mind that most of those hospitals have already postponed elective surgeries so the numbers are lower than they would be under normal circumstances. Those 4 states could be in some serious trouble if the rate of admissions exceeds the rate of discharge/death.

But these hospitals are still mostly filed with non-COVID19 patients from what I've heard. The combination is pushing them to the limit. And COVID19 doesn't seem to slowing down.

What do you expect them to do? Lock down again? You want that with all that comes with it? They lock down again, things may get even more chaotic and insane. The economy is not well even if the stock market keeps on rising like it is. The government is already handing out money like it is free and has boosted the national debt to an insane level this year. States are already facing shortfalls which will require them to either raise taxes substantially or cut programs and probably both.

Things gotta roll forward or we're screwed. Death or no death. Mask or no mask. You can't fill the prisons with people refusing to wear masks.

So not sure what you think they can do about this? You should be looking to protect yourself because any leader that can't accept a high death count and plans to try to lock us down again is going to absolutely obliterate the economy. The only out is the Federal government continuing to print money and the repercussions of this are going to absolutely hammer this economy down the line dividing it even more than it is now. You can bet that Social Security and Medicare will be on the chopping block as well since payroll taxes pay for it and with a 10% plus unemployment, locking down again will hammer those programs. So there won't be a lot of immunity for anyone if they decide to lock down again.

[RiverDog]

How many hospitals does Florida have?

According to Wikipedia, 325. But 10 of those hospitals that are out of ICU's are in Miami-Dade county, the epicenter of the crisis, and I would expect them to be some pretty large facilities. Here's some more info on the situation:

Finding a bed for all those sick people became increasingly harder with the Agency for Health Care Administration reporting that 54 hospitals (now 57) in the state (Florida) now have zero available beds in their intensive care units and another 40 hospitals have less than 10 percent bed availability in their ICUs.

Ten of the hospitals where no ICU beds are left are in Miami-Dade, the most populous county in Florida and the state’s top coronavirus hotspot.

https://news.yahoo.com/florida-hospital ... 06302.html

That's 1/3 of all the hospitals in the state that are either out or extremely short of ICU beds, and the infection rate keeps climbing. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Looks like Dumb as Dirt may have to step up again to do something. If Dumb as Dirt wants to win Florida, he better step up big to help them. That state is absolutely essential to his re-election. Maybe that will motivate him.

I see where Trump fired his campaign manager, supposedly because he had grown increasingly frustrated with him over the poor showing at the Tulsa rally and his continued sagging in the polls, especially in the critical swing states.

And you're right. Florida is critical. There's not a lot of roads to victory that doesn't include Florida.

[RiverDog]

A few other COVID tidbits. In Florida, out of over 50,000 children tested for COVID, a whopping 31% were positive. The head of the CDC said yesterday that we could get the virus under control in two weeks if everyone would mask up with going out in public while Georgia Governor Brian Kemp banned cities and counties from issuing mandatory mask orders. Georgia has had more than 127,838 diagnosed cases of coronavirus, with at least 3,091 deaths.

The White House has been sending mixed signals regarding their confidence in Dr. Anthony Fauci. Peter Navarro, an advisor of of the Presidents on trade with China, wrote a scathing op-ed in USA Today about Fauci. In an uncharacteristic rebuttal, the doctor defended himself by saying " "I cannot figure out in my wildest dreams why they would want to do that. I think they realize now that that was not a prudent thing to do, because it's only reflecting negatively on them," Fauci told The Atlantic. "I can't explain Peter Navarro. He's in a world by himself." Despite having been a frequent and vocal critic of the doctor himself, President Trump weighed in and now claims that he and the doctor have a "good relationship" despite the fact that Trump hasn't been briefed by the doctor for several months.

The good news is that one of the many potential vaccines completed a very encourage human trial. All 45 volunteers injected with the experimental vaccine developed high levels of antibodies without any serious side effects. Larger trials are scheduled to start later this month. If successful, the company says they can supply 500 million or more doses in 2021.

[Aseahawkfan]

Dumb as Dirt is seemingly taking the information delivery away from the CDC and in house. We'll see how that works. He is trying to control information and magically make this disappear. The death rate needs to remain low for Dumb as Dirt to have any chance of making that strategy work.

If the Republicans are 80% responsible for the idiocy as c-bob claims. Dumb as Dirt is responsible for 60% of that. I'd bet money no other Republican president would handle a pandemic this stupidly or provide so little leadership during this time.

Dumb as Dirt is leading Republicans off a cliff right now. We'll see how many lemming Republicans follow him. I am still hearing a ton of talking about "Biden being weak and blah, blah, blah." They better hope the death rate remains low or their won't be any rocks for Dumb as Dirt to hide under.

[I-5]

I expect Americans to resist any government mandate even if it's scientifically backed and good for their health, wealth, or what not.

I find this to be true, which is also what makes America one of the dumbest countries when it comes to public behavior. I think non-americans are genuinely shocked when they see how americans have responded to this pandemic. As Riv said, it's a stupid hill to die on. To steal an analogy I saw, the US has become the Florida of the world.

[Aseahawkfan]

I find this to be true, which is also what makes America one of the dumbest countries when it comes to public behavior. I think non-americans are genuinely shocked when they see how americans have responded to this pandemic. As Riv said, it's a stupid hill to die on. To steal an analogy I saw, the US has become the Florida of the world.

Don't know what to tell you. There are many days I wonder how we became the remaining global superpower. I can only surmise that though there are a lot of ignorant Americans, we must have a whole lot of super intelligent and capable people as well. I guess in an open, free environment where you get to say and do as you please, you end up producing both the highly productive, intelligent, and capable people that help you become a superpower mixed with dumb as dirt people who make you look like a country full of idiots.

[I-5]

Don't know what to tell you. There are many days I wonder how we became the remaining global superpower. I can only surmise that though there are a lot of ignorant Americans, we must have a whole lot of super intelligent and capable people as well. I guess in an open, free environment where you get to say and do as you please, you end up producing both the highly productive, intelligent, and capable people that help you become a superpower mixed with dumb as dirt people who make you look like a country full of idiots.

That’s exactly true. For people who have never been to the US, I tell them that you can find the most extreme of everything here, from the best athletes to the most sedentary people, the smartest to the dumbest, the most atheist/agnostic to the most religious, and even the greediest to the most generous people in the world. I guess that’s why it can be called the greatest and the worst country at the same time.

One thing is for sure, I can’t think of a worse president to have in the worst possible health crisis of the last hundred years than what we have now. It’s almost a perfect storm.

[Aseahawkfan]

That’s exactly true. For people who have never been to the US, I tell them that you can find the most extreme of everything here, from the best athletes to the most sedentary people, the smartest to the dumbest, the most atheist/agnostic to the most religious, and even the greediest to the most generous people in the world. I guess that’s why it can be called the greatest and the worst country at the same time.

One thing is for sure, I can’t think of a worse president to have in the worst possible health crisis of the last hundred years than what we have now. It’s almost a perfect storm.

I can't imagine any president I can recall in my lifetime or in history that would have done so little during the worst crisis in America in modern history. Given what Trump is doing, I can only surmise the amount we have been able to control it is due to the governors and people working under Trump. Trump is treating this like it's some overblown inconvenience he wants to brush under the carpet. Unfortunately the left wing is busy attacking Republican governors when many Republican governors are also working with little to no support from the White House and aren't as against mask wearing or necessary measures to protect people as Dumb as Dirt. But they're still under attack just by guilt by association.

As far as I can see the only thing that saves Trump right now is a low death rate. And the only reason he has a chance is because Biden looks so weak and he still hasn't picked his VP candidate. Combine that with the polarizing effect of these protest movements focusing on race and defunding the police, something the moderate voter isn't super interested in, especially the moderate female voter, and you have Trump with a chance.

If Trump could talk like Reagan and handled this pandemic better, he would win by a landslide. If Biden were a stronger candidate without the baggage of a racially charged election that looks like an attack on the police and white people as a whole, then Biden would win in a landslide. But we have these two polarizing forces with the right and left media stoking these fires making this a touch situation to call until we get closer to election time.

This is absolutely the worst leadership I've seen in my lifetime. I want to go back at some point to mostly ignoring the president. I want a guy in there who takes care of important issues, keeps the peace, mediates congress, and knows how to communicate in a way that doesn't make us all look like racist, argumentative, combative idiots who think "Science is some kind of liberal magic that liberals use to attack conservatives." I can only surmise the view on science is as it is right now because far too many people, especially those involved in climate change, hail it as absolute and flawless with their constant assertions of Armageddon, every single one of those predictions from peak oil to Malthusian Famines to Y2K to a temperature reaching a level we'll die every twenty years or so being wrong. How can long can you cry wolf before people start looking at science like they do religious people who claim the end of the world is coming? How often do you get to be wrong before you cause people to question the validity of your assertions? Now we need a strong support for a scientific view and the Science Armageddonists have created a huge group of skeptics.

[RiverDog]

Dumb as Dirt is seemingly taking the information delivery away from the CDC and in house. We'll see how that works. He is trying to control information and magically make this disappear. The death rate needs to remain low for Dumb as Dirt to have any chance of making that strategy work.

If the Republicans are 80% responsible for the idiocy as c-bob claims. Dumb as Dirt is responsible for 60% of that. I'd bet money no other Republican president would handle a pandemic this stupidly or provide so little leadership during this time.

Dumb as Dirt is leading Republicans off a cliff right now. We'll see how many lemming Republicans follow him. I am still hearing a ton of talking about "Biden being weak and blah, blah, blah." They better hope the death rate remains low or their won't be any rocks for Dumb as Dirt to hide under.

I don't want to speak for Cbob, but I don't think he quantified the blame. I'm the one that put an 80/20 number on it, and yes, 60% on the POTUS seems about right.

The average American isn't going to be looking at the death rate or any other stats. That's just for the 5-10% like you and me that actually pay attention. When Joe Six Pack sees images on TV of dead bodies being hauled out in refers, when he sees hospitals overflowing, when he sees ICU patients shuffled around, when he can't get a routine procedure done, and most of all, when the restrictions are such that he can't go to the beach, can't go into the local bar, and when his kid's fall sports are canceled, he'll pay attention.

[c_hawkbob]

For the record, I'm OK with 80/20. It's not what I said but it's pretty close to what I would have said if I were to have put a number to it.

[NorthHawk]

I would think that as the deaths and complications from the virus mount, more people will become aware of the seriousness
of it and some, if not most will have doubts about what they believe. Perspectives change when things like this hit home.

[RiverDog]

I would think that as the deaths and complications from the virus mount, more people will become aware of the seriousness
of it and some, if not most will have doubts about what they believe. Perspectives change when things like this hit home.

Much like Trump himself, most Americans don't read as much as they do watch TV. The result is that they need images, like mass burials or lines of cars backed up for free food from a food bank or to get tested for COVID. It's going to be the TV media, specifically cable networks like Fox, CNN, MSNBC, and a few others that will be driving the election.

[NorthHawk]

What I was trying to get at is when a family member or neighbor gets the virus and has some moderate to severe
symptoms that might linger, it opens peoples eyes a little and some or many may start to change their views. Or at
least begin to doubt what they are hearing from the news sources they frequent.