A Peaceful Transition

[mykc14]

Did I detect a note of sarcasm in some of those remarks? I'm not going to be so naïve to think that all our problems will suddenly disappear on Jan. 20th, but I do think that by next summer that the country will be measurably better on all fronts than we have been this year. But you're absolutely right about the varying degrees of POV's regarding Donald Trump. That part for sure won't disappear on Jan. 20th.

And just a note regarding vaccines. Moderna just released the preliminary findings on their vaccine's Stage 3 trial, and like Pfizer's vaccine, it was shown to be 90+% effective with very few side effects. The results of both still need to be peer reviewed, but it seems likely that we'll have 2 vaccines approved by the end of the month and distribution beginning before the end of the year.

I know that a lot of you are skeptical of vaccines, but my wife and I are planning on getting one as soon as they become available. I've taken scores of vaccines over the course of my 66 years on this planet, I've been under general anesthesia a number of times, and I've never experienced anything more than a little soreness at the injection site, so considering that over 80,000 participants in the trials didn't experience a reaction to the vaccine, I don't know why my reaction to this one would be any different. The risk of getting seriously ill from COVID, or my causing someone else to get sick, is a lot higher than a severe reaction from a vaccine.

The initial research on these seems to be very promising. As far as if myself or my kids will get the vaccine I have to look into the actual research a little more. I'm not super worried about myself. I would say that I have a much higher chance of getting the vaccine myself than giving it to my kids. Hopefully the research continues to produce encouraging results!

[mykc14]

This is the Trump party Im talking about. Trump himself and his utter shills.. Not conservative vs liberal ideology on debate here. THE TRUMP PARTY HATES AMERICA. Or at a minimum they love Trump a lot more than they love America. They have made america unrecognizable to me, the republican party.Disgusting base behavior, lying cowardice gets rewarded over and over. People who disagree get fired which is why we have our 5th!!!!!!!!!!! (acting) secretary of defense while Trump plots ways to go to war.This POS has done more damage to america in 4 years in the ways that really matter than every democratic administration in my lifetime. And it continues to this day with his charade trying to convince 70 million gullible brain dead trumpanzees he won and being willing to go to war to wag the dog. Tearing away from myself and the 80 million who would have crawled miles on glass to vote the son of a b**** out the satisfaction of hearing this orange baboon admit he lost and not endanger the country and world with his refusal to concede. Its not fake news . Its news. He's horrible, the worst president in history and he got 70 million votes.

Its really bad and sad when a naked emperor can fool the people for a while. Its chilling when his fat stink bloated naked orange body is in full view and 70 million will support him they claim cause socialism so bad.

BS. Its a friggin cult. Just own up to it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/se ... r-BB1b68rX and in other news...
come on Jan 20.hurry...

Again, everything you are saying about the Trump 'cult' the Right is saying about 'The Squad.' There aren't 70+million voters who are 'Turmpanzees' there are 70+ million voters who value conservative ideals more than they dislike Trump. These people who you are calling morons and idiots believe that the election was stolen from them because they believe the Left would do anything to take the presidency away from Trump. The liberal media paints them as blind, stupid, drooling Trump supporters but the reality is most just don't trust the Left. The reason they believe the election was stolen from them is because the conservative media paints the left as cheaters who will do anything to get their way (Russia voter fraud that was initiated by Hillary, Obama, and Biden to discredit Trump, The Cavagnaugh 'witch hunt,' impeaching Trump, threatening to impeach Trump for nominating somebody to the SCOTUS, packing the supreme court, voter fraud, etc...). I am not saying that any of it is true but that is what they are fed on a daily basis via social media, fox news, and Trump himself. Believing that does not make them stupid or blind. They are deceived into believing an extreme version of reality. A worst case scenario and they are scared. The same is true of the Left. If you would have looked at all of the fears about a Trump presidency coming from CNN after the 2016 election you would have thought that the world was ending. America would be going to war with anybody who even looked at us wrong, gays and lesbians would lose the right to marry or adopt, Roe v Wade would be overturned, minorities would lose rights, minimum wage laws would be overturned, the economy would sink, etc. The reality was that none of that happened and until COVID things were going fine in America, but Dem's across the country were scared to death of what a Trump presidency would look like. The Republicans are just as scared now.

[RiverDog]

The initial research on these (vaccines) seems to be very promising. As far as if myself or my kids will get the vaccine I have to look into the actual research a little more. I'm not super worried about myself. I would say that I have a much higher chance of getting the vaccine myself than giving it to my kids. Hopefully the research continues to produce encouraging results!

In my opinion, we should be viewing the vaccines in the same manner as we view mask wearing: It's not just about protecting us, it's about not spreading the virus to someone else. My wife has two auto immune diseases: MS and rheumatoid arthritis, plus we're both over 65. My best friend of whom I see as often as anyone, is 82 years old. Getting the vaccine is as much, if not more, about protecting them as it is protecting myself. I'll take my chances vs. having to live with the thought of my having caused one of them to die because I was so selfish as to worry about my having a reaction. If I get sick from it, then so be it.

Pfizer announced yesterday that they will be seeking FDA approval for emergency authorization for their vaccine in the next couple of days. Here's what they reported as to the side effects of the 43,000 volunteers that got the test vaccine:

Pfizer didn't record any serious safety concerns in its clinical trial. Like most vaccines, the Pfizer vaccine -- which is given in two doses over three weeks -- caused mild side effects. The most common 'grade 3' adverse effects were fatigue, which happened in about 3.7% of volunteers, and headache, in 2%.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/pfizer-va ... d=74267353

[mykc14]

In my opinion, we should be viewing the vaccines in the same manner as we view mask wearing: It's not just about protecting us, it's about not spreading the virus to someone else. [/i]

I don't agree with the idea that wearing a mask is the same as getting a vaccine, but I do agree that getting a vaccine is not just about protecting myself, which is why I would be willing to get the vaccine. My aversion to a vaccine has more to do with my kids. Wearing a mask has literally zero chance of hurting my kids, it is annoying and they don't like it but we wear masks to protect other people. I am not sure about the effect that this vaccine will have on kids yet. I am sure any negative effects are minimal, but I also don't want my kids to be historical footnotes connected to a vaccine that was rushed too quickly and had extreme negative consequences. The polio vaccine is a good example of that. If I remember correctly the vaccine was rushed through in the 1950's and (I don't know the exact specifics but I think some of the vaccines sent out were tainted or something was wrong) over 40,000 kids got sick, with some even becoming paralyzed. Again, I know there is a very small chance of this happening, but I have to weigh that against the small chance that my child will infect a vulnerable person. If the vaccine is 90% effective and there is evidence to suggest that asymptomatic people, especially kids, aren't spreading the virus then the odds of them actually spreading it to a vulnerable, vaccinated person is almost zero as well. I am going to research this more and I would like to see how many children were involved in the trial. If I am not satisfied with the numbers I won't vaccinate my kids, but I will still have them wear masks in public and especially around vulnerable people.

[RiverDog]

My aversion to a vaccine has more to do with my kids. Wearing a mask has literally zero chance of hurting my kids, it is annoying and they don't like it but we wear masks to protect other people. I am not sure about the effect that this vaccine will have on kids yet. I am sure any negative effects are minimal, but I also don't want my kids to be historical footnotes connected to a vaccine that was rushed too quickly and had extreme negative consequences. The polio vaccine is a good example of that. If I remember correctly the vaccine was rushed through in the 1950's and (I don't know the exact specifics but I think some of the vaccines sent out were tainted or something was wrong) over 40,000 kids got sick, with some even becoming paralyzed. Again, I know there is a very small chance of this happening, but I have to weigh that against the small chance that my child will infect a vulnerable person. If the vaccine is 90% effective and there is evidence to suggest that asymptomatic people, especially kids, aren't spreading the virus then the odds of them actually spreading it to a vulnerable, vaccinated person is almost zero as well. I am going to research this more and I would like to see how many children were involved in the trial. If I am not satisfied with the numbers I won't vaccinate my kids, but I will still have them wear masks in public and especially around vulnerable people.

I can understand your reluctance regarding your kids as they haven't had as much history with vaccines as adults.

The vaccine you were talking about during the 1950's was polio and it wasn't because it was rushed to the market. It was due to an improper manufacturing process in one laboratory that failed to properly inactive the live virus used in the vaccine so they ended up giving kids polio. The science itself was sound. The same problem likely would have occurred no matter how much testing and research they did prior to approval and distribution. It was a quality control problem. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

In any event, the concern is getting enough people immune to where we've denied the virus a host so it fails to reproduce and dies on the vine, stopping it from spreading, and the only viable way to achieve that is through an aggressive vaccination program that immunizes a high percentage of the population.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/white-men-considered-genocide-patriarchy-220000797.html

Here is an example of an article that Republican and conservatives read and feel like the Democrats and their supporters hate white men and are looking to use the power of government to hurt them. Even moderate centrist Republicans read this and feel like the Democrats and their minority supporters are going to make laws to attack them and their children painting them all as racist for supporting the Republican agenda. Doesn't at all explain why Trump got more support from minority voters than typical in elections or address why that occurred, but a direct assault on Trump supporters as racist. It's this type of tiresome refrain that drives the Republican white male supporters into a tizzy and makes them want to rise up against what they see as a rising tide of minority and progressive tyranny. More divide and conquer journalism to keep the two sides at other's throats.

[Aseahawkfan]

If the data is solid on the vaccines, then people should take them. We only have months of data, but so far minimal side effects. I likely won't get the vaccine myself because I rarely get flu shots or that kind of thing since I'm not super at risk and have had it, but older folks and at risk folks should take it. The risk of harm from getting the virus likely higher than the risk of damage from the vaccine. The data should be thoroughly reviewed and available for public consumption soon. If given an emergency use authorization will likely be focused on at risk populations.

If this vaccine is as effective as listed and allows us to open up the economy again, imagine how much that will bolster humanity as a whole that our scientific apparatus was able to take down a spreading global virus within a year. That will be absolutely amazing. Basically a global push for a vaccine by biotech partially funded by private and public money will have gotten control of a virus in record time using a mRNA vaccine. That will be pretty damn amazing if it is 90% effective. I hope it works because the faster we can beat viruses, the more resilient humanity becomes as microscopic organisms and natural disasters are two of the major threats from nature we have yet to gain sufficient control over.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/white-men-considered-genocide-patriarchy-220000797.html

Here is an example of an article that Republican and conservatives read and feel like the Democrats and their supporters hate white men and are looking to use the power of government to hurt them. Even moderate centrist Republicans read this and feel like the Democrats and their minority supporters are going to make laws to attack them and their children painting them all as racist for supporting the Republican agenda. Doesn't at all explain why Trump got more support from minority voters than typical in elections or address why that occurred, but a direct assault on Trump supporters as racist. It's this type of tiresome refrain that drives the Republican white male supporters into a tizzy and makes them want to rise up against what they see as a rising tide of minority and progressive tyranny. More divide and conquer journalism to keep the two sides at other's throats.

I must say its a cleverly written piece albeit by a liberal perspective but I agree with much of it. This really isn't a close election comparatively speaking and any dignified person would have conceded when it was called. Had it been a dignified person it would have been called days earlier. Trumps just crazy and angry and evil AF.

He cant help himself but his enablers can. Its sad to have Pompeio, west point educated, former CIA director popping off about a second Trump term, sickening. Lindsey Graham is without a doubt the sleaziest man alive. He went from Trump critic to apologist and frontman and hit man and personal investigator in about 2 trips to trump national. Its got to be blackmail beyond what they have on Falwell Jr to have now interfered wit the georgia secretary of state and ask for ballots to be tossed and the republican led senate has launched an ethics investigation. How this guy can look at all the positions he's taken in life and sleep with himself I dunno. Maybe thats why hes a senator and im a grass janitor The conduct of the republicans denying Biden the graciousness of a well earned win is just despicable, unprecedented in my lifetime.Its dangerous as well. politics matters more than america.

[Hawktawk]

If the data is solid on the vaccines, then people should take them. We only have months of data, but so far minimal side effects. I likely won't get the vaccine myself because I rarely get flu shots or that kind of thing since I'm not super at risk and have had it, but older folks and at risk folks should take it. The risk of harm from getting the virus likely higher than the risk of damage from the vaccine. The data should be thoroughly reviewed and available for public consumption soon. If given an emergency use authorization will likely be focused on at risk populations.

If this vaccine is as effective as listed and allows us to open up the economy again, imagine how much that will bolster humanity as a whole that our scientific apparatus was able to take down a spreading global virus within a year. That will be absolutely amazing. Basically a global push for a vaccine by biotech partially funded by private and public money will have gotten control of a virus in record time using a mRNA vaccine. That will be pretty damn amazing if it is 90% effective. I hope it works because the faster we can beat viruses, the more resilient humanity becomes as microscopic organisms and natural disasters are two of the major threats from nature we have yet to gain sufficient control over.

Ill take it immediately. A record should be made of people who wont take it and they should not be prioritized for covid care. Send them home.

[Aseahawkfan]

Ill take it immediately. A record should be made of people who wont take it and they should not be prioritized for covid care. Send them home.

We don't treat people that way in this country. You cannot force people to take a vaccine or deny them care because they refuse. I'm not sure why you are supporting such an idea.

It's this type of thinking as to why I can't stand Trump. When he stated in a national debate that he did not want to help people based on their political affiliation, that should have been one of the key reasons people did not vote for him. I'm still surprised people did not key on that and look to take him out. No president should be allowed to target people based on their beliefs. The government should certainly not be able to do so.

I don't plan to take the vaccine. Not because I don't believe in the vaccine's effectiveness or because I am anti-vaccine, but because I believe my immune system is very strong and I know how to take care of myself. Thus I don't want to take any vaccine from someone more vulnerable. The vaccine will come in limited supply and it should be given to the most vulnerable based on data first and I do not fall into the category. I should be low priority for a vaccine. I am not on the demographic high risk list. I won't take vaccine from those who are high priority on that list. And if I happen to get sick enough to require care, that would be pretty crappy for hospitals to refuse me care.

[Aseahawkfan]

I must say its a cleverly written piece albeit by a liberal perspective but I agree with much of it. This really isn't a close election comparatively speaking and any dignified person would have conceded when it was called. Had it been a dignified person it would have been called days earlier. Trumps just crazy and angry and evil AF.

He cant help himself but his enablers can. Its sad to have Pompeio, west point educated, former CIA director popping off about a second Trump term, sickening. Lindsey Graham is without a doubt the sleaziest man alive. He went from Trump critic to apologist and frontman and hit man and personal investigator in about 2 trips to trump national. Its got to be blackmail beyond what they have on Falwell Jr to have now interfered wit the georgia secretary of state and ask for ballots to be tossed and the republican led senate has launched an ethics investigation. How this guy can look at all the positions he's taken in life and sleep with himself I dunno. Maybe thats why hes a senator and im a grass janitor The conduct of the republicans denying Biden the graciousness of a well earned win is just despicable, unprecedented in my lifetime.Its dangerous as well. politics matters more than america.

Those clowns chose their bed. Now they're lying in it. That's why I would never think to take a position with Trump. The man is notorious for demanding absolute loyalty from everyone around him often backed up by NDA and such legal forms. If you want to work with Trump, you have to treat him like he's the king. That's what these people who have aligned with him are doing. Bunch of sycophants hanging on his coattails as the last of his power wanes and Trump falls becoming nothing but a bad smell in The White House that we will all forget after a while.

December 14. Then January for Inauguration Day. Then Trump and his followers are all done and you can laugh at them and ignore them.

[RiverDog]

Ill take it immediately. A record should be made of people who wont take it and they should not be prioritized for covid care. Send them home.

We don't treat people that way in this country. You cannot force people to take a vaccine or deny them care because they refuse. I'm not sure why you are supporting such an idea.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It's quite possible that some employers will require their employees to get one, especially if they're in an occupation, like care givers, that come in close contact with people at risk:

Legal experts largely agree that employers are within their rights to institute a COVID-19 vaccine requirement once it’s approved by federal authorities and available to the masses. But there are some exceptions, and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has leaned in favor of a softer approach with the flu vaccine.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/corona ... 69049.html

Once the vaccine has been proven to be safe and effective, it should be mandatory. If they can make a law that requires that you wear a seat belt to protect no one else but you, then I don't see a problem forcing someone from getting a vaccine to protect others.

I don't plan to take the vaccine. Not because I don't believe in the vaccine's effectiveness or because I am anti-vaccine, but because I believe my immune system is very strong and I know how to take care of myself. Thus I don't want to take any vaccine from someone more vulnerable. The vaccine will come in limited supply and it should be given to the most vulnerable based on data first and I do not fall into the category. I should be low priority for a vaccine. I am not on the demographic high risk list. I won't take vaccine from those who are high priority on that list. And if I happen to get sick enough to require care, that would be pretty crappy for hospitals to refuse me care.

So long as you eventually get the vaccination (on the assumption that it's proven to be safe), I don't have a problem with your position and even admire it to some degree. But I would consider those with whom you come in contact with. This isn't just about you, it's about your friends and family.

[Aseahawkfan]

So long as you eventually get the vaccination (on the assumption that it's proven to be safe), I don't have a problem with your position and even admire it to some degree. But I would consider those with whom you come in contact with. This isn't just about you, it's about your friends and family.

First, the liability issues of forcing people to take a vaccine is beyond what I think most corporations will take on. If this vaccine harms people any corporation with a requirement to take it will absorb that liability which would open them to millions of dollars in damages. So for business reasons, I highly doubt employers will require such a thing taking on that liability.

No. You cannot force people to take a vaccine. Past flu pandemics have been bad and it did not lead to flu vaccine requirements. Fining people for not wearing a seat belt is far different than forcing someone to inject a substance into their body. I will make you a gentleman's bet right now no one will be able to force someone to inject something into their body, even employers. If it is done, it will launch a Constitutional battle you will not believe including violent resistance. You think the country is divided now, you try to make people take a vaccine. It would be the single stupidest thing the government has done in this whole mess if they attempt it. And it will only worsen the situation when you have more positive and productive ways to get people to take a vaccine.

This isn't a take the vaccine once and you're done. This isn't even necessarily a yearly vaccine. Initial estimates from what I understand is you will be taking this vaccine every 6 to 8 months depending on mutations. Hard to believe you would support such a law, but I definitely won't. I will defy it on principle as no government should ever be able to force someone to inject something into their body on a continuous basis. That is a line I do not want crossed by our government.

----

And after that tirade I will tell you how it will actually go. The government and private corporations will support a marketing blitz with the vaccine. This will include positive data and supporting anecdotes that the vaccine is effective and improving lives. They will first provide it for high risk populations and healthcare workers. Once they have done this they will continue to monitor the case load. If the case load drops substantially enough once this is done, then they will leave it alone. If it does not, then they will market it further to younger populations producing more of the vaccine. Once again they will monitor the case load. If it is under control, then they will leave it.

The vaccine is not 100% effective and the length of immunity is unknown. Herd immunity as it is called will be a combination of natural immunity already inherent in the population combined with vaccine boosted immunity to lower the risk and case load to a level similar to the flu. The ideal is to completely defeat it, but the likely outcome is a reduction of problems to flu levels with hopefully a yearly to bi-yearly vaccine for at risk populations that will reduce it to a manageable level.

There will be no need for a Draconian approach for the coronavirus vaccine. No idea why you think the starting point should be there given the younger population is not experiencing a high mortality rate and once you vaccinate your vulnerable population natural immunity will further leave the virus no way to go. The vaccine activates your immune system to defeat the virus preparing it in advance.

Vaccine definition: a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease

It will be unnecessary to require the vaccine. You are over-reacting at the moment, which is understandable. Don't worry, many people will be just like you and rush to get the vaccine, especially if they are at risk. You will find this will reduce the virus to highly manageable if not negligible levels. The government will not need to resort to nuttiness and worsen this situation.

As far as you and the missus personally, the way a vaccine works is both you and your wife should be immune the virus even if you come into contact with someone else with the virus if the vaccine is as effective as they claim it is. If this vaccine works and it seems to work very well, then you will see a huge drop in case without the need to require it. That is just how vaccines work combined with natural immunity. So you won't have to hire vaccine police to force people to inject a vaccine into their system with hawktawk denying dying Americans from care because they didn't take the vaccine. You guys are starting to get crazy too.

I hope this vaccine works as well as it lists and there no mutations. We don't need more division as people start choosing sides over this vaccine. I'm glad Biden will be the one administering it as Trump would probably refuse it and act like an ass encouraging his followers to do the same. Whereas Biden will take it and be patient with a strong marketing campaign and close monitoring of case loads once it is administered.

[RiverDog]

No. You cannot force people to take a vaccine.

I doubt that very many places outside of first responders will require employees have vaccinations, but you most definitely can force people to take a vaccine. Just ask anyone who's ever served in the military. Do you think that they're going to allow you to refuse to take a shot if you're serving on a 1,000' long aircraft carrier with 4500 sailors on board? It used to be required that children be vaccinated before they would be admitted to a public school.

This isn't a take the vaccine once and you're done. This isn't even necessarily a yearly vaccine. Initial estimates from what I understand is you will be taking this vaccine every 6 to 8 months depending on mutations. Hard to believe you would support such a law, but I definitely won't. I will defy it on principle as no government should ever be able to force someone to inject something into their body on a continuous basis. That is a line I do not want crossed by our government.

That hasn't been determined yet. I just heard yesterday that some of those that have recovered from COVID have developed a very strong antibody response that can last up to a year.

Once the crisis has passed, once our hospitals have recovered, and once we get the spread under control, I wouldn't make getting the shot mandatory. But I damn sure would for the first year or so. This is a very transmissible disease that is raging out of control. It's already killed a quarter million people in this country alone. Your personal rights end where mine begin, and you do not have the right to threaten me or the community with an unreasonable and unjustified refusal to take the shot.

Hard to believe you would support such a law, but I definitely won't.

My position on vaccinations is less Draconian than what you once said you'd do to force people to live a healthy lifestyle.

[I-5]

Just in case we've grown numb to the current state of our 'leadership', not too long ago (12 years does seem long ago, though), this event happened during another transition period of the WH:

“As part of the presidential transition, Barack Obama asked Bush if it would be possible for him to meet all the ex-presidents. Bush was happy to oblige, and organized a White House luncheon in the Oval Office on January 7. Bush and Obama were joined by Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George H. W. Bush. The luncheon lasted over two hours, each former president ordered his lunch à la carte from the White House mess, and the tone was convivial and friendly. “All the gentlemen here understand both the pressures and possibilities of this office,” said Obama before the meeting. “For me to have the opportunity to get advice, good counsel and fellowship with these individuals is extraordinary, and I just want to thank the President for hosting us.”Bush was equally effusive. “We want you to succeed,” he replied. “Whether we're Democrat or Republican we care deeply about this country. And to the extent we can we look forward to sharing out experiences with you. All of us who have served in this office understand that the office transcends the individual.”

-Excerpt from Jean Edward Smith's biography of George W. Bush

[c_hawkbob]

Just in case we've grown numb to the current state of our 'leadership', not too long ago (12 years does seem long ago, though), this event happened during another transition period of the WH:

“As part of the presidential transition, Barack Obama asked Bush if it would be possible for him to meet all the ex-presidents. Bush was happy to oblige, and organized a White House luncheon in the Oval Office on January 7. Bush and Obama were joined by Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George H. W. Bush. The luncheon lasted over two hours, each former president ordered his lunch à la carte from the White House mess, and the tone was convivial and friendly. “All the gentlemen here understand both the pressures and possibilities of this office,” said Obama before the meeting. “For me to have the opportunity to get advice, good counsel and fellowship with these individuals is extraordinary, and I just want to thank the President for hosting us.”Bush was equally effusive. “We want you to succeed,” he replied. “Whether we're Democrat or Republican we care deeply about this country. And to the extent we can we look forward to sharing out experiences with you. All of us who have served in this office understand that the office transcends the individual.”

-Excerpt from Jean Edward Smith's biography of George W. Bush

Yeah, I remember when Presidents, whether you voted for or against them, were worthy of the nation's respect ... those were the days eh?

[Aseahawkfan]

Just in case we've grown numb to the current state of our 'leadership', not too long ago (12 years does seem long ago, though), this event happened during another transition period of the WH:

“As part of the presidential transition, Barack Obama asked Bush if it would be possible for him to meet all the ex-presidents. Bush was happy to oblige, and organized a White House luncheon in the Oval Office on January 7. Bush and Obama were joined by Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George H. W. Bush. The luncheon lasted over two hours, each former president ordered his lunch à la carte from the White House mess, and the tone was convivial and friendly. “All the gentlemen here understand both the pressures and possibilities of this office,” said Obama before the meeting. “For me to have the opportunity to get advice, good counsel and fellowship with these individuals is extraordinary, and I just want to thank the President for hosting us.”Bush was equally effusive. “We want you to succeed,” he replied. “Whether we're Democrat or Republican we care deeply about this country. And to the extent we can we look forward to sharing out experiences with you. All of us who have served in this office understand that the office transcends the individual.”

-Excerpt from Jean Edward Smith's biography of George W. Bush

And maybe some people forgot, the media made it seem like George W. Bush hated Obama and left the White House in a petty fashion. Glad to see someone in journalism documented reality versus the fiction that Obama and Bush Jr. hated each other and Bush acted in a petty fashion.

I had to remind conservatives and Republicans who forgot that George W. Bush was attacked as much as Trump, called a war criminal, and relentlessly questioned and blamed for everything during his presidency including having media stories painting him as a racist after the New Orleans levees broke with a picture of him wiping his hand after shaking hands with a woman of African descent after shaking her hand, but he handled it all like a president should not engaging in the criticism in a petty manner. Bush Jr. had to deal with the conspiracy accusation he and his family engineered 9/11.

Obama was under constant attack by the conservative media, blocked in Congress constantly by the Republicans, had to deal with constant criticism including a birther conspiracy claiming he wasn't born here, handled it like a president without engaging in petty fighting.

Donald Trump can't even handle having his hand size ridiculed without acting in a petty and narcissistic manner. He takes the bait on every media story from every sources including social media and starts some kind of petty, narcissistic fight with low class insults and garbage. He did not rise to the job at all. Just went into the White House and turned it into The Trump House. That's why I don't think people voted for him so much as voted for him because they hate he Dems. He was so good at selling the Democrats as the villains in America.

[Aseahawkfan]

Once the crisis has passed, once our hospitals have recovered, and once we get the spread under control, I wouldn't make getting the shot mandatory. But I damn sure would for the first year or so. This is a very transmissible disease that is raging out of control. It's already killed a quarter million people in this country alone. Your personal rights end where mine begin, and you do not have the right to threaten me or the community with an unreasonable and unjustified refusal to take the shot.

The vaccine is individual immunity. If you take it, it provides you with immunity. It doesn't matter if I choose to walk around risking sickness as that is my choice. Once you take the vaccine, you shouldn't have to worry about me. So that is a poor argument that shows a poor understanding of how a vaccine works.

So no, you don't get to determine what I take into my body.

My position on vaccinations is less Draconian than what you once said you'd do to force people to live a healthy lifestyle.

Horsecrap. I did not mandate anything. Mine was all working through taxation. And you didn't support this with cardio-vascular disease still killing more people than this virus by a good measure.

You don't even like my ideas for heroin with heroin leading to major issues including death on a yearly basis. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/statedeaths.html

Seems you finally found a reason to lose your fricking mind and invite government control into people's lives you would support. I guess everyone has their line and this is your line where you will allow the government to mandate people inject themselves with a vaccine created in under a year by a corporation who will make billions for creating it. I find that pretty frightening that you would do that. To me that creates a far scarier precedent than wanting to tax foods that are bad for your health that people can voluntarily eat or force them into rehab for voluntarily taking in a poison that has them hopelessly addicted.

I don't know if you realized this, but even with the vaccine some are claiming we will still remain locked down and wearing masks because they're not sure it's going work. Imagine that, they are not sure this vaccine will work. Sounds amazing doesn't it? Here's a vaccine. Oh wait, it didn't stop the virus spread and death. Keep taking it and keep wearing your mask and social distancing until we figure out a vaccine for whatever strain it's not working against that is still killing us.

Sorry man, you need to be rational about this and just hope this thing works with subsequent case count drops. The government isn't going to be able to maintain these lockdowns and requirements indefinitely. People will lose their fricking minds.

[RiverDog]

I disagree completely. Even if you take a vaccine with a 95% efficacy as has been reported does not prevent you from acquiring the virus. There is still a 5% chance that you will get sick from it and become a spreader. The more people that get vaccinated, the less probability for that 1 out of 20 individual will pass it to someone else. The virus cannot find a host and dies on the vine. That's how we eradicated polio, through a very aggressive vaccination program.

Please point to me in the Constitution where it is that you have a right to refuse taking a vaccine? How is the government able to dodge those rights for those serving in the military? Did they sign them away during their enlistment? If you are convicted of a crime, do you lose your right to refuse a vaccine?

If you have ever drank water out of a tap or a drinking fountain, then someone has put chlorine and perhaps fluoride into your body without your knowing or approving of it. I see no difference between that and making a vaccine mandatory.

I wouldn't propose to make taking the vaccine mandatory forever, perhaps sunset it after 2 years. Once the crisis has past, when hospitals get back to normal, when we've developed more effective measures to treat those infected with it, then I would be OK doing away with the mandatory part. Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures.

[c_hawkbob]

How is the government able to dodge those rights for those serving in the military? Did they sign them away during their enlistment?

Well, yes actually. When you enlist you essentially become government property. But I agree with you.

[RiverDog]

How is the government able to dodge those rights for those serving in the military? Did they sign them away during their enlistment?

Well, yes actually. When you enlist you essentially become government property. But I agree with you.

Being that you are a veteran and I've never served, I'll cede that argument to you. But I still think it would be pretty hard for the military or any other institution to set aside a person's Constitutional and/or civil rights if taking a vaccine was among them.

I once had a friend that was an MP in the Army at the height of the Vietnam War. His blood type was AB-, and he said that every week they took him into a tent and drew a pint of blood from him. He had no choice. He said that he had more needle marks in him than the worst drug addict.

[Hawktawk]

I find aseas rationale for not being vaccinated to be admirable in theory but blind to the real danger of this virus which is asymptomatic spread. You can be healthy as a horse, have a humongous viral load but feel great and go see gramps and uh oh. Everyone needs to take it or at a minimum we need to have rapid tests and rapid antibody tests as well available to the general public.

[RiverDog]

Yea, I'm a little surprised at how long some of the Republican pols are keeping their lips attached to Trump's behind. But they are starting to crack.

The question is why would they do that? He is a lame duck ex-president, so the only ones they really fear are his cult followers...are they themselves are drinking the Trump is King Kool Aid.

Back to the OP.

Tucker Carlson of Fox News, one of Trump's biggest supporters from a network that has supported Trump since his candidacy back in 2016, lambasted Trump attorney Sidney Powell for not providing any evidence of voter fraud:

But even Carlson said he was fed up with the total lack of evidence produced by Sidney Powell, one of the Trump campaign’s attorneys, for her unfounded allegation that electronic voting systems had switched millions of ballots to favor President-elect Joe Biden.

"We invited Sidney Powell on the show. We would have given her the whole hour,” Carlson said. “But she never sent us any evidence, despite a lot of requests, polite requests. Not a page. When we kept pressing, she got angry and told us to stop contacting her.”

Carlson also noted: “She never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another. Not one.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

Like I said, there are lots of cracks amongst Trump supporters.

[c_hawkbob]

How is the government able to dodge those rights for those serving in the military? Did they sign them away during their enlistment?

Well, yes actually. When you enlist you essentially become government property. But I agree with you.

Being that you are a veteran and I've never served, I'll cede that argument to you. But I still think it would be pretty hard for the military or any other institution to set aside a person's Constitutional and/or civil rights if taking a vaccine was among them.

I once had a friend that was an MP in the Army at the height of the Vietnam War. His blood type was AB-, and he said that every week they took him into a tent and drew a pint of blood from him. He had no choice. He said that he had more needle marks in him than the worst drug addict.

Yeah, you honestly do not have a say at all in what shots they give you, as any sailor that has ported overseas can tell you, or whether and how often they want to draw blood (unless you can get a Dr to say that you are being compromised by so doing). I'm only A- and they still drew plenty of my blood.

[Hawktawk]

Back to the OP.

Tucker Carlson of Fox News, one of Trump's biggest supporters from a network that has supported Trump since his candidacy back in 2016, lambasted Trump attorney Sidney Powell for not providing any evidence of voter fraud:

But even Carlson said he was fed up with the total lack of evidence produced by Sidney Powell, one of the Trump campaign’s attorneys, for her unfounded allegation that electronic voting systems had switched millions of ballots to favor President-elect Joe Biden.

"We invited Sidney Powell on the show. We would have given her the whole hour,” Carlson said. “But she never sent us any evidence, despite a lot of requests, polite requests. Not a page. When we kept pressing, she got angry and told us to stop contacting her.”

Carlson also noted: “She never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another. Not one.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

Like I said, there are lots of cracks amongst Trump supporters.

Carlson knew by Nov 4 Trump was gonna lose. He knew there was no fraud at all. Now he wants to act like he was somehow deceived by them

The hell with him. Carlson has blood on his hands. He's like Pontius Pilate sending Christ to the cross. He can wash his hands forever and that stain wont come off. Fox entertainment talking heads and their dear leader are responsible for probably half the 250K deaths by covid with their truther conspiracy theories, mask denying BS. They have propped up a dangerous despotic fascist man for 4 years, sullied the reputation of fine dignified career public servants who dared take on dear leader. Sure they are coming to Jesus now as they see the meal ticket drying up but its way too late.

[RiverDog]

The hell with him. Carlson has blood on his hands. He's like Pontius Pilate sending Christ to the cross. He can wash his hands forever and that stain wont come off. Fox entertainment talking heads and their dear leader are responsible for probably half the 250K deaths by covid with their truther conspiracy theories, mask denying BS. They have propped up a dangerous despotic fascist man for 4 years, sullied the reputation of fine dignified career public servants who dared take on dear leader. Sure they are coming to Jesus now as they see the meal ticket drying up but its way too late.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Trump's support for contesting this election is eroding before our eyes, and I was using Carlson as an example. If Trump loses guys like Carlson, Hannity, et al, he's losing his base. The only thing that is keeping more Republicans from giving up Trump is that they are afraid of his base.

And once again, I'll have to credit Joe Biden for giving Trump space. He was asked if he was considering taking legal action to force the transition, and he has resisted. I do understand the need for him and his team to access critical information but I don't know how far in advance of the inauguration that information is needed. We're exactly two months away from having a new POTUS.

[Hawktawk]

That wasn't my point. My point was that Trump's support for contesting this election is eroding before our eyes, and I was using Carlson as an example. If Trump loses guys like Carlson, Hannity, et al, he's losing his base. The only thing that is keeping more Republicans from giving up Trump is that they are afraid of his base.

And once again, I'll have to credit Joe Biden for giving Trump space. He was asked if he was considering taking legal action to force the transition, and he has resisted. I do understand the need for him and his team to access critical information but I don't know how far in advance of the inauguration that information is needed. We're exactly two months away from having a new POTUS.

I agree it's big when Carlson etc are starting to smell the coffee but IMO Carlson has sullied his reputation more than most with his flip flopping on the virus, Trump etc.
Bidens been the epitome of class and diplomacy and is already taking the lead with state governors on the virus as Trump basically shelters and tweets lies. Biden has also said he has no interest in pursuing federal investigations of Trump with his justice department which is smart. I hate Trump, would love to see him rot in prison but not the best move politically. Biden is already growing by leaps and bounds in a job he hasn't officially taken yet. I hope we make it to Jan 2020. here's romney's take

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp


Heres the deal America. Thuis president is meeting with republican election officials from Michigan in the white house today. He called the 2 Wayne country republicans personally to ask they rescind their vote to certify which they have tried to do. They are lobbying States to appoint electors favorable to Trump and disenfranchise millions of voters. Hes intentionally lighting fires too big for Biden to put out and poisoning his victory with 73 million americans who are increasingly whacked out on conspiracy theories. I will not rule out military actions, he's the boss if he says do it, right? can anyone legally stop him?
If I had a voice the dude would be brought up on sedition charges right now.

[Hawktawk]

https://news.trust.org/item/20201120120309-xh7wz

Is this even legal? The trump party is absolutely off the rails.This ain't a publicity stunt or fundraiser opportunity. The man wants installed. If they pull it off there will be a civil war and my old 61 year old butt will be in the streets right along with everyone else. Can truly not comprehend how this is happening.

[Hawktawk]

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-do ... 91b75abdfc
I had to laugh at the clown Guliani with his hair dye running down his face being laughed out of court. Between he and Jerry falwell Jr in his speedos watching his wife with the pool boy it about sums up the Trump party And74 million voted for this

[NorthHawk]

https://news.trust.org/item/20201120120309-xh7wz

Is this even legal? The trump party is absolutely off the rails.This ain't a publicity stunt or fundraiser opportunity. The man wants installed. If they pull it off there will be a civil war and my old 61 year old butt will be in the streets right along with everyone else. Can truly not comprehend how this is happening.

He's putting in place the building blocks for a political coup. If it goes forward, only time will tell but it's a dangerous precedent.

[RiverDog]

He's putting in place the building blocks for a political coup. If it goes forward, only time will tell but it's a dangerous precedent.

Oh, come off it! There's not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

[c_hawkbob]

He's putting in place the building blocks for a political coup. If it goes forward, only time will tell but it's a dangerous precedent.

Oh, come off it! There's not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

Whatever your opinion of it being successful there is no denying that it is exactly what he is attempting, and I honestly hope to hell he winds up in prison for it. It's treasonous.

[I-5]

Whatever your opinion of it being successful there is no denying that it is exactly what he is attempting, and I honestly hope to hell he winds up in prison for it. It's treasonous.

Exactly. It's not whether it succeeds or not, it's the attempt. How is that not grounds for removal from office in itself?

Attempting a crime is itself a crime, whether or not it succeeds is a different matter. That's how far we've come, that we are this numb. It's just another log on the fire.

[RiverDog]

Whatever your opinion of it being successful there is no denying that it is exactly what he is attempting, and I honestly hope to hell he winds up in prison for it. It's treasonous.

My comments weren't about what he was attempting, or to put it more accurately, contemplating, they were about his probability of success.

And while I disagree that it's by definition treasonous (we have to be at war), I do agree that what he is contemplating is highly illegal and would be deserving of a long prison sentence. However, at this point, he has not done anything illegal.

[RiverDog]

Exactly. It's not whether it succeeds or not, it's the attempt. How is that not grounds for removal from office in itself?

Attempting a crime is itself a crime, whether or not it succeeds is a different matter. That's how far we've come, that we are this numb. It's just another log on the fire.

There's a difference between attempting a crime and thinking about attempting one. If, for example, he tries to coerce Michigan Republicans into stacking their electors with people that will vote for Trump, then I'm with you 100%. But so far, we have seen no evidence that has occurred.

[c_hawkbob]

You're unbelievable, you have to actually see him doing a thing to admit that he is in fact doing it. You really suppose he just summoned them for a cup of tea?

[RiverDog]

You're unbelievable, you have to actually see him doing a thing to admit that he is in fact doing it. You really suppose he just summoned them for a cup of tea?

Yes, I have to actually to "see" him doing it, or see some sort of hard evidence, like a recorded phone call. As soon as someone comes out and says that Trump had tried to get them to commit an illegal act, then I'm with you 100%. So far, all I've heard is second hand reports and speculation. None of that would ever stand up in a court of law.

[RiverDog]

And in other news, the Georgia Secretary of State, a Republican, has certified Joe Biden as the winner of that state's electoral votes:

Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican, said he made Biden’s win official after a hand recount of the vote affirmed this week that the Democrat’s razor-thin lead over Trump was “true and correct.”

“I live by the motto that numbers don’t lie,” said Raffensperger, who has become a political punching bag for Trump-loyal Republicans who are defending the president’s unprecedented refusal to concede the election. “The numbers reflect the verdict of the people, not a decision by the secretary of state’s office or of courts or of either campaign.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

Michigan and Pennsylvania will certify theirs on Monday the 23rd.

[Hawktawk]

Rd trying to get Michigan etc to appoint faithless electors is exactly what he’s doing . The men were in the Oval Office today . If any of this is legal there need to be some new laws to account for utterly lawless fascists like Trump.

[RiverDog]

Rd trying to get Michigan etc to appoint faithless electors is exactly what he’s doing . The men were in the Oval Office today . If any of this is legal there need to be some new laws to account for utterly lawless fascists like Trump.

Until I see evidence a law that is actually broken and that a crime may have been committed, I will refer to Trump's attempts to overturn the results of the election in the same manner in which Mitch Romney is characterizing them: Undemocratic.