Brady knew

[Hawktawk]

Wells report is out. Too stupid to properly link it but the findings are eyebrow raisers. What should be the punishment?

[HumanCockroach]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutd ... 08354.html

[c_hawkbob]

I think they should force Brady to watch Giselle have a night of unbridled, passionate sex with a Seahawks fan, and I'd like to volunteer for the duty.

[Hawkstar]

I think they should force Brady to watch Giselle have a night of unbridled, passionate sex with a Seahawks fan, and I'd like to volunteer for the duty.

Stepping up and taking one for the team! Very unselfish move Bob ~ a true Gentleman and representative of the Hawks.

[c_hawkbob]

I do what I can.

[RiverDog]

Wells report is out. Too stupid to properly link it but the findings are eyebrow raisers. What should be the punishment?

4 game suspension for Brady, surrender next year's #2 draft choice for the Pats, monetary fine for Belichick.

[obiken]

Is He the Lance Armstrong of the NFL?

[Hawktown]

I think they should force Brady to watch Giselle have a night of unbridled, passionate sex with a Seahawks fan, and I'd like to volunteer for the duty.

Nasty, lol. Be my guest!

[Hawktawk]

[quote="obiken"]Is He the Lance Armstrong of the NFL?[/quote

Bob, Brady might want to watch. Hes not pure as the driven snow, thats for sure


Obi I dont know if there is an analogy to really compare this curious situation to. And it isn't "he" its "they. Its another indictment of the organization from the top down. From the arrogant bloviating of Kraft to the dismissive attitude of Billacheat right on down to Tom terrific standing up and lying to the world repeatedly there is a stain on the organization that will never go away. In a way it seems Nixonian, the Pats would likely have had tremendous success playing by the rules but thats how dishonest people are. They lie and cheat for the thrill of it.And now the "what, who me?" and the spin cycle is in full political mode, marching out lawyers and Papa Brady etc.

We will see if Goody two shoes has any stones now. IMO Billacheat should get 8 games and Brady a year, strictly based on the penalties handed down to the Saints and the previous cheating by NE. Probably will be 4 to 6 games for Brady and reduced to 2 on appeal or perhaps the lawyer agent files an injunction so Brady can open the season.Or maybe they fine them like when they were cheating with illegal filming for 8 years and 3 FG wins in 3 SBs. What a joke, Kraft, Billacheat and Brady use fine money for pocket change.

Its a mess, thats for sure

[Hawk Sista]

Kraft is a jackwagon. How unfair of the NFL to look into claims by multiple teams/players that precious cover-boy Tommy cheated. By all means, he's the G.O.A.T. What a farce. What a joke. How many times is this franchise gonna get away with this crap?

[c_hawkbob]

Eisen this afternoon quoted one of the Patriots legal types as insisting that NFL bylaws demanded nothing more that a fine for deflategate and that trying to hit Brady with anything more than a $75000 fine was "a fight the NFL didn't want" ...

[Agent 86]

Eisen this afternoon quoted one of the Patriots legal types as insisting that NFL bylaws demanded nothing more that a fine for deflategate and that trying to hit Brady with anything more than a $75000 fine was "a fight the NFL didn't want" ...

Wow, that is a ballsy thing to tell the league if I understand that correctly. His lack of co-operation in the whole thing is what could prove to be his downfall.

Not sure if a suspension is going to come, or draft picks stripped, or a big fine. Is Belicheck untouchable here? Was Sean Payton untouchable? No, he got 1 year because he was the head coach and even though he claimed he knew nothing, the league came down hard on him. Now this issue isn't about trying to injure players, but it is a point of reference.

I'll be honest, I don't mind the Patriots, mostly because they beat the Steelers and Colts in many playoff games, and am no fan of the Steelers or Manning. I do hope that Brady gets some kind of suspension though, maybe 4 games? And they also get a heavy fine and stripped of draft picks. With this on top of Spygate, enough is enough.

It will be very interesting to see what Godell does here after his debacle of a year last season.

[obiken]

HT It was a tongue in cheek remark, but I agree with Collin Cowherd this morning. Its never the crime, it's the lying about it. Its really the NFL's fault, after 2005, they let the teams handle their own balls. Moreover, with Brady, Billi, and Kraft, its an in your face, prove it punks attitude. Well now they have the e-mails, if the NFL was to suit him in Civil court would they win? YEAH. For murder no. I have no doubt they cheated.
Its Nixon all over again. Why come up to the line, they don't need to. Nixon carried 49 states why mess the DNC? Its a flaw. Moreover, he normally would have just admitted it but he was afraid to be suspended from the SB. To miss 4 games is no biggy; they don't have him for the SB, we would have won in a walk. Should have anyway. Its a chink in his armor, that's all.

[HawkDawg]

Could this affect his future Hall of Fame status - as they have done with some of the baseball "greats"? Seems like the NFL has a different standard. Maybe since the game is softening, he might be accepting the guinea pig award. That brings on a whole new set of questions, IE: is OJ grandfathered in?

[obiken]

I don't think so the NFL is all about numbers. I just don't like the lying and the fact that deflating the ball has a bigger affect on the running game. Give Lynch a deflated ball and see if he fumbles. Go look at the Pat fumble stats, then come back and tell me it didn't matter.

[HumanCockroach]

It would also most certainly affect QBs with "small" hands, especially in cold or bad weather games, Kreigitis if you will. I don't know if Brady has that issue, just pointing out it could and would be an advantage for that type of QB.

[NorthHawk]

We might find out the punishment if any sometime today.
Friday's a good day to drop a bomb and leave for the weekend.

[kalibane]

I don't think it has a huge effect on the outcome of games but that is actually beside the point.

The only thing that matters is this: Brady and some Equipment managers went out of their way to defraud the officials and alter the equipment that was to be used in a competition in a way they knew to be against the rules because Brady believed it would improve his chances to win.

It's the very definition of cheating no matter the degree. He has to be suspended especially considering the Patriot's history. The fact that he lied about it and refused to cooperate with the investigation is just icing on the cake.

[NorthHawk]

It actually could have a great effect on games.
If Brady otherwise had thrown incompletions or interceptions instead of positive plays, games that look like blowouts could have been much closer or have a different outcome.
Add into that the curious fumble statistics of running backs who lose the ball at a much higher rate after moving to other teams and deflated balls look like they may have major impacts on performance.

[Hawk Sista]

To the degree deflated balls impact the game is debatable. I suspect each player, QB, RB, WR, returner specialist, Center, and kicker (I know they have special footballs for ST) has a PSI preference. I read an article (sorry, no link) that said Brady has Arthritis in his throwing shoulder and the difference between 13 PSI and 10.5 provides significantly less stress on the shoulder. Tim Hasslebeck said he prefers underinflated balls too and went on to say that he has never, nor has his brother or Brock/Damon, ever been aware of this level of deception and cheating in the NFL. All that to agree that Kalibane is exactly right; the rules were indeed willfully broken. THIS FACT is indeed the point. How much impact did it have, who knew, who lied???..all that is just frosting on this big ol' cheater cake.

I'll be interested (as is the rest of America - even non football loving crowd cannot quit talking about Brady's balls) to see what happens to the organization and Brady. It's a horrible precedent to un-punish or under-punish a blatant cheater. I can see racial issues arising if he gets a very light "sentence" as I am sure people will feel like Brady is getting special treatment........but I am WAY ahead of myself on making that point, though I heard it alluded to by Shawn Merriman last night on CNN.

I also believe that the degree to witch the PSI of the game ball impacts the game is likely greater than we can know. Look at the stats that bear that out. Turnover margin and field position are two of the best data-sets to look at to predict a win....Both of those are helped by this rule break. MAS

[Hawktawk]

It actually could have a great effect on games.
If Brady otherwise had thrown incompletions or interceptions instead of positive plays, games that look like blowouts could have been much closer or have a different outcome.
Add into that the curious fumble statistics of running backs who lose the ball at a much higher rate after moving to other teams and deflated balls look like they may have major impacts on performance.

I have heard "it wouldn't have made a difference" in the AFC Title Game. maybe not but what about the Ravens, a team who twice had a 14 point lead in the contest?
Everyone says "he didn't have under-inflated balls in the SB. True he threw 2 picks as well and should have lost as a result but was bailed out by the incredible defensive plays of an undrafted rook. Indy had complained about ball inflation earlier in the season and The Ravens punter and kicker said their kicking balls seemed not to have the carry. But it seems the only focus of this investigation was the AFC Championship.My bet is Brady the old fossil has been throwing Nerf balls for years. And damn straight it has won them games. Its utterly rotten.Goodell doesn't want to know the absolute truth. Just like Spy gate he really doesn't want to know the whole story. He cant handle it, the league would have a hard time absorbing it short of vacating titles if it all came out IMO.

[Vegaseahawk]

Goddell & Kraft have a long standing friendship. I wonder how that relationship will affect his decision.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah Kraft and Goody have a long standing relationship. I think it helped the Pats during Spy gate greatly. Illegal surreptitious filming of defensive signals had occurred likely since Billacheats days in Cleveland and it was reported that the Rams 99 SB walk through had been filmed illegally. The witness who had done much of the videotaping suddenly clammed up, Goody issued some big fines and he personally destroyed the video evidence. That in particular was BS. Any league with an antitrust exemption has a responsibility to show their fans what happened.Ill never believe the truth was told as to the level of that scandal.

As for this current scandal Goody, Kraft, and 31 other owners have a close relationship with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That may influence the decision as well. National media is stating that sources say a suspension of up to a year is entirely possible, which I would believe to be fair. 14 years of cheating take a year off and think about it you whining little girl. Bellicheck should get at least 4 games for creating a culture where cheating is accepted and embraced, perfected...Kraft should be fined 50 million for being an arrogant blowhard financing the cheat riots.

[NorthHawk]

Damien Woody, Brady's former Center said he believes Brady ordered the balls deflated and did so many times.
He didn't say it happened when he was snapping the ball, but he said Brady was such a competitor that he thought he would cross that line to get an edge.

[savvyman]

I may be in the minority here - But I do not want to see Tom Brady get suspended.

I do not wish to have the impact of deflategate affect the 16 game season in the NFL.

Was there ever a doubt in anyone's mind during this entire affair that not only was Brady aware of the ball inflation practices but he most certainly was the final tester and approver of the proper inflation rate for each ball?

It is also beyond any reasonable doubt that Parcells and the entire organization were also unaware of the ball inflation policies and practices of the Patriot team?

However, I do not wish to see the punishment levied for deflategate effect any of the play that happens on the field next season.

What I would like to see is that the Patriots are stripped of draft picks in Rounds 1, 2 & 3 in next years college draft. This would be a severe punishment, send the right message to all teams and their players without affecting the outcome of the games next season - Like a suspension of Tom Brady for up to a year would as what some news stories are reporting is possible.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/myers-roger-goodell-suspend-tom-brady-deflategate-article-1.2215881

[Futureite]

Ok, ok. Maybe I can forgive Richard Sherman now for screaming in Brady's face. Sit his ass 8 games minimum!

[Seahawks4Ever]

First of all any punishment Goody Two Shoes hands down will be lessened on appeal.

Secondly we all know Brady lied, BUT when Kraft and Belicose asked Brady whether he did it or not I am sure he told them the truth. That means that both Kraft and Belicheat have been 100% behind the cover up and have been lying to the NFL investigators.

I mean, Kraft and Belicheat have really shown nothing but contempt for Goody and his office.

I order to show that he has any authority left Goodell HAS TO COME DOWN HARD on both Kraft and Belicheat.

We are talking about the integrity of the game here. Belicheat is a repeat offender and should be banned for life, and I don't mean like Greg Williams either who was forgiven after one year. I mean for LIFE.

Kraft should be banned from having anything to do with his franchise for 5 years like MLB's George Steinbrenner was.

Now, I would also take away the Patriots entire draft for two seasons.

As for Brady, he too should be banned for life for tampering with the integrity of the game.

None of this will happen, not even close, but if I was Goodell I don't see how I am not emasculated if I did anything less.

[Oly]

I may be in the minority here - But I do not want to see Tom Brady get suspended.

I do not wish to have the impact of deflategate affect the 16 game season in the NFL.

Was there ever a doubt in anyone's mind during this entire affair that not only was Brady aware of the ball inflation practices but he most certainly was the final tester and approver of the proper inflation rate for each ball?

It is also beyond any reasonable doubt that Parcells and the entire organization were also unaware of the ball inflation policies and practices of the Patriot team?

However, I do not wish to see the punishment levied for deflategate effect any of the play that happens on the field next season.

What I would like to see is that the Patriots are stripped of draft picks in Rounds 1, 2 & 3 in next years college draft. This would be a severe punishment, send the right message to all teams and their players without affecting the outcome of the games next season - Like a suspension of Tom Brady for up to a year would as what some news stories are reporting is possible.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/myers-roger-goodell-suspend-tom-brady-deflategate-article-1.2215881

I understand the sentiment here, but your recommended punishment just pushes the effect onto the 2016 season, and then long into the future. Taking away Brady or taking away 3 draft picks both do the same thing: they remove talent from the field.

As long as there is a punishment, I don't have a strong preference. I would lean toward suspending Brady, though, because an individual punishment for an individual decision seems best (even considering the Pats' culture of cheating).

[Futureite]

First of all any punishment Goody Two Shoes hands down will be lessened on appeal.

Secondly we all know Brady lied, BUT when Kraft and Belicose asked Brady whether he did it or not I am sure he told them the truth. That means that both Kraft and Belicheat have been 100% behind the cover up and have been lying to the NFL investigators.

I mean, Kraft and Belicheat have really shown nothing but contempt for Goody and his office.

I order to show that he has any authority left Goodell HAS TO COME DOWN HARD on both Kraft and Belicheat.

We are talking about the integrity of the game here. Belicheat is a repeat offender and should be banned for life, and I don't mean like Greg Williams either who was forgiven after one year. I mean for LIFE.

Kraft should be banned from having anything to do with his franchise for 5 years like MLB's George Steinbrenner was.

Now, I would also take away the Patriots entire draft for two seasons.

As for Brady, he too should be banned for life for tampering with the integrity of the game.

None of this will happen, not even close, but if I was Goodell I don't see how I am not emasculated if I did anything less.

I tens to agree with you, but here's the problem I have. All teams cheat in ways similar to this. The 49ers had Justin Smith hold for yrs on the TE game with Aldon Smith, and it was rarely called. Jerry Rice admitted to using stick em', but for some reason did not view it as cheating because "everyone else did it". And I know you'll probably never admit it, but the Seahawks' corners mugged receivers for yrs. I've posted many times that I saw it with my own eyes Thursday Night in 2012 LONG before it became a national narrative. Our guys were damn near bear hugged that entire night, and I pointed it out to my friend several times.

All of these things are technically cheating. They are on the fringe of what is legal, and any player or team is going to continue with a tactic that works until it gets called. I'd like to see Brady suspended just for the fact that the Pats' organization has cheated before, and they cannot continue on like this. But just like the examples I cited above, I cannot really quantify how much of an advantage a deflated freaking football provided to them.

[NorthHawk]

The difference between on field cheating and equipment modification or other to get an advantage is huge.
On field infractions can be seen by all and corrected by the officials. If officials aren't calling something, both teams have the opportunity to break the rules.
In every sport I played, we played to the Officials - what do they like calling, and what do they let us get away with.
Off field infractions give the impression that a team is simply better coached or has more talent when in fact it isn't or doesn't.

The hidden deception hits at the heart of competition as much as PEDs do and should rightfully have a different and more substantial punishment.

[Oly]

The difference between on field cheating and equipment modification or other to get an advantage is huge.
On field infractions can be seen by all and corrected by the officials. If officials aren't calling something, both teams have the opportunity to break the rules.
In every sport I played, we played to the Officials - what do they like calling, and what do they let us get away with.
Off field infractions give the impression that a team is simply better coached or has more talent when in fact it isn't or doesn't.

The hidden deception hits at the heart of competition as much as PEDs do and should rightfully have a different and more substantial punishment.

This.

The on-field stuff (1) is out in the open where it can be called by the officials, and more importantly (2) can be taken advantage of equally by both teams.

[Futureite]

The difference between on field cheating and equipment modification or other to get an advantage is huge.
On field infractions can be seen by all and corrected by the officials. If officials aren't calling something, both teams have the opportunity to break the rules.
In every sport I played, we played to the Officials - what do they like calling, and what do they let us get away with.
Off field infractions give the impression that a team is simply better coached or has more talent when in fact it isn't or doesn't.

The hidden deception hits at the heart of competition as much as PEDs do and should rightfully have a different and more substantial punishment.

True to a point. Both teams can take advantage of the way a game is called (outside of the rules) if their team is built to do so. Going back to the Pats' example, in 2003 the Colts were built to push the ball downfield. In the 2003 AFCCG, the Pats corners were clearly playing outside of the rules, grabbing, holding and pushing the Colts' receivers well downfield. That wasn't allowed by the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the Pats were allowed to employ that strategy the entire game. They did it in the 2002 SB as well. IMO, it was cheating. You can argue that "both teams could do it", but that strategy wouldn't have result in anywhere near the same competitive advantage for the Colts or the Rams respectively, had they done it to the Pats.

Bottom line is, all teams and players do cheat. After finding out that Rice used stick em', I do wonder how many of his highlight reel catches were aided by it. Obviously, he'd still be a great player, but maybe that stick em' helped him grab a ball that was crucial to a SB run. The Pats were still a great team and the Seahawks' secondary has proven it was still great. But in each case, I still wonder. The difference between winning and losing a game and even an individual battle is so small at the highest level of competition. Who's to say whether that the advantage gained from cheating - however minimal - was not the tipping point. It shouldn't be allowed, ever.

For that reason and his lying, sit Tom Brady for 8 games. Let him figure out how to inflate the balls he deflated while he's on the bench.

[RiverDog]

At first, I thought Brady should draw a 4 game suspension for his role in this, treating it basically like a PED violation. But now that I've heard that Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation by not surrendering his emails and text messages, I'm raising the ante to an 8 game suspension. Reward players that cooperate, penalize those that stonewall it.

[HumanCockroach]

Per Rodger Goodell, "ignorance is NOT an excuse" meaning not only Brady, AND Bill, but Kraft and FO personnel are fair game, at least if he is looking to be consistent. He can ask Payton and Loomis and Co for a refresher if he needs to.

[Hawktawk]

Per Rodger Goodell, "ignorance is NOT an excuse" meaning not only Brady, AND Bill, but Kraft and FO personnel are fair game, at least if he is looking to be consistent. He can ask Payton and Loomis and Co for a refresher if he needs to.

^^^^This
Cheating is a way of life in NE, not an anomaly.Throw the book at them.....

[RiverDog]

How about the head coach? He knew nothing? Is he not responsible for the conduct of his team? It is somewhat like the punishment when a large corporation is found to be committing fraud. Put the CEO in jail. If you don't, the misconduct will continue. Sorry to inject a non-football analogy, but the comparison is fair. Pro football is big business, and it includes amazing amounts of money. If you don't make the decision makers responsible, there will be no improvement.

Agreed about the head coach bearing some responsibility, as well as ownership, although I'm not going to advocate throwing Kraft in jail. This isn't the first time the current Pats regime skirted the rules. IMO there should be some rather large fines, loss of draft choices, perhaps a suspension for Belicheck, although I don't view it as serious as the Bountygate scandal.

[HumanCockroach]

Interesting RD, I suppose ultimately there was never enough evidence that I saw that made me believe anyone on the Saints ever willingly cheated, here that isn' t the case. Maybe I'm just caught up on the " smoking gun" aspect of it...

[NorthHawk]

I heard a comment on NFL Radio this morning that sounds to me like what will probably happen.
They said Brady gets a 2 game suspension, he appeals and ends up with 1 game.

With all the bluster the NFL produces, I still just get the feeling they will give the minimal penalty.

[Hawktawk]

I always thought bounty gate was a joke from the get go. There was no physical evidence of dirty play on the field. All players are trying to knock their opponent senseless every play no matter what is said.Might as well sit Carroll a year for the way Cam Bam hits everybody.

Tom Brady obsessively ordering ball boys to deflate balls after inspection is a lot easier scandal to absorb. Then Brady lied, refused to cooperate and now has no comment, letting his dad and his agent plead his case in the court of public opinion and try to sway Goodells penalty decision. Watching the Jim Gray interview was an embarrassment for both Brady and Gray. There are still so many shills for this fraudulent superstar in the media, NFL radio is like a Brady rooting section. I think momentum is beginning to shift away from a lengthy suspension, which will be a travesty if it winds up being a slap on the wrist. 2 games would be a joke but thats what I suspect will happen.

[RiverDog]

Interesting RD, I suppose ultimately there was never enough evidence that I saw that made me believe anyone on the Saints ever willingly cheated, here that isn' t the case. Maybe I'm just caught up on the " smoking gun" aspect of it...

Bounty Gate wasn't about cheating or trying to gain a competitive advantage so much as it was rewarding players for inflicting injuries. Deflate gate is all about attempting to gain a competitive advantage, however small, which is why I equate it more along the lines of PED's.

If Brady gets off with just a one game suspension, it will be a travesty. Just the fact that he stonewalled investigators ought to earn him a two games.